Towards a Surrealist Poetry

[Will Dockery]

Towards a Surrealist Poetry
Poetry weaves the spider's web of symbols for thoughts to dance upon.
Not unlike the work of Rene Magritte, poetry allows the author to
construct a sea of symbols that can awaken in the reader, a deeper
understanding of the spiritual or dream world of life. By
constructing a space of symbols, and repeating these symbols so that
they can be seen in diferent contexts, the poet can construct a new
space for people to think or dream in. The symbols so used should be
familiar, tending towards universal symbols. By doing this, the poet
can provide a space where people are free to apply meanings that are
personal to the readers of their work. Rene Magritte, the Belgian
Surrealist painter accomplished this in an oeuvre of several hundred
paintings, many of which repeated the same images presented
differently in each painting. The symbols so presented do not need
to physically match the material world, but they should have an
internal working of their own. If this is accomplished, then the poet
can create a new world-space for people to think and dream in.
Melting Moments
Let the moments
melt away into
dreams as you
lay down to rest
your tired body.
A day dream passes
into a night dream
while the dust of
the day settles
on the shores of
your thought.
Sliding into tomorrow
you see echoes of
your hopes pass
before your eyes
day dreams slipping
into moments sliping
into time spent.
And the waves of
time rush against
the shores of your
life in ever
ceaseless surges.
Carving moments
into memories on the
dream that passes
through you.
Melting moments
sliping past you
Melting moments
slipping from you
like water from ice
And you know each drop
is a day you lived.
But when
the moments are gone
the ice melts
completely onto
the shore
and into
the vastness of
the ocean.

Surrealism produces some of the most entertaining-interesting poetry...
perhaps the ultimate poem is a combo of surreal and confessional elements,
which play off each other. Rimbaud is a great poet to check out for this,
and Usenet's Dale Houstman.

Here's just one of the many conversations Houstman has participated in on
the questions and answers of surrealism, which can be found by Googling the
archives with "dale houstman"+"surrealism":
Andrea Chen View profile
More options Jul 7 1999, 2:00 am

Newsgroups: alt.surrealism, alt.alien.visitors, rec.arts.prose
From: Andrea Chen
Date: 1999/07/07

Surrealism is dead. Long live neosurrealism.

Cool! This makes 3 schisms so far to our surrealist project(tm)

1) Neu Surrealism
2) Post Surrealism
3) Neosurrealism
4) Red Shoe Surrealism

(see count em 3!)

not to mention

5) Brandon/Barrett/Dale surrealism which multiplied with the rest
creates an unreal number.

We should start thinking about how to fluff out each of our
surrealist
projects while encouraging everyone on the net to create their own.
Remember each project should have lots of imaginery people, an
impressive hierarchy and one or more world (or in my case universe)
saving missions. We should also be prepared to accuse each other of
unspeakable crimes.

Remember the goal of surrealism is to release the imagination and
this
includes delusions of grandeur.

Dale Houstman wrote:
You forgot....

1 . Satori Surrealism
2. Sucatash Surrealism (big in the Midwest)
3. Heroin Chic Surrealism
4. Surly Surrealism (a speciality of the cadaver hounds)
5. Shirtless Surrealism (come to the beach...)
6. Skirtless Surrealism (...and bring your kid sister)
7. Surrealism with a Side Order of Baby Shrimp
8. Exxon Surrealism (Oily at Orly)
9. Gnu-Surrealism
10. Surrealism with a Fringe on the Top
11. Surrealism for Beginners
12. Surrealism -in-a-Bag
13. Surrealism-on-a-Stick
14. Frenchfried Surrealism
14. ParaSurrealism (as opposed to Paris Surrealism)
14. Ugly Tongue Surrealism
14. SewerRealism
14. Surrealism ala Glass Oranges
13. The "Best Years of Our Lives" Surrealism
12. Libertarian Surrealism
11. Answerealism
11. Ambulatory Surrealism
12. Surrealism-in-a-Basket
9. Melting Watch Surrealism
10. Watching Smelt Surrealism
10. Orrin Hatch Surrealism
10. Poserrealism
9. Beside-the-Pontillism Surrealism

This is just the first one on the list of items of /Houstman On
Surrealism/... might make a good coffeetable volume, where examples of
surrealist art can be included with the poetry and commentary... or at least
re-posted here...

--
"You can't find "sense" in the poem, fine...
that doesn't mean there's none there, just
that you can't, or won't, see it."
- Will Dockery, 15 May 2007

"Wobble" by Dockery & Conley (recorded August 14 2007):

"Toxin on Glass" by Shadowville Installation - song by Gene Woolfolk Jr,
Timothy Maxwell, Gary Frankfurth, & Will Dockery:

[John Barnes]

Will,

Thank you for this reference. I love the lists that they came up
with. Very funny.

I will have to do some research into some of these older postings.
And also see what I can find out about Rimbaud.

John

[Will Dockery]

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thank you for this reference. I love the lists that they came up
with. Very funny.
I will have to do some research into some of these older postings.
And also see what I can find out about Rimbaud.
John

Rimbaud's language was french, so the translations vary somewhat wildly,
depending on the styles and agendas of the translators. I have three books
of Rimbaud in my collection, and each one gives different effects when
reading the poems... I've glimpsed through a brand new translation at the
local bookstore which may just be the best yet... maybe I'll give myself a
copy for Christmas... heh.

Arthur Rimbaud's poetry manifesto:

"...The first study for the man who wants to be a poet is knowledge of
himself,
complete: he searches for his soul, he inspects it, he puts it to the test,
he learns it. As soon as he has learned it, he must cultivate it! I say that
one must be a seer, make oneself a seer. The poet becomes a seer through a
long, immense, and reasoned derangement of all the senses. All shapes of
love suffering, madness. He searches himself, he exhausts all poisons in
himself, to keep only the quintessences. Ineffable torture where he needs
all his faith, all his superhuman strength, where he becomes among all men
the great patient, the great criminal, the great accursed one--and the
supreme Scholar! For he reaches the unknown! ....So the poet is actually a
thief of Fire..."

-Arthur Rimbaud, The Letter of the Seer, May 15, 1871

Here's one, "Ophelia", from:

http://velvet-and-rust.blogspot.com/2007/01/ophelia-by-arthur-rimbaud-on-calm.html

On the calm black water where the stars are sleeping
White Ophelia floats like a great lily;
Floats very slowly, lying in her long veils...
In the far-off woods you can hear them sound the mort.

For more than a thousand years sad Ophelia
Has passed, a white phantom, down the long black river.
For more than a thousand years her sweet madness
Has murmured its ballad to the evening breeze.

The wind kisses her breasts and unfolds in a wreath
Her great veils rising and falling with the waters;
The shivering willows weep on her shoulder,
The rushes lean over her wide, dreaming brow.

The ruffled water-lilies are sighing around her;
At times she rouses, in a slumbering alder,
Some nest from which escapes a small rustle of wings;
A mysterious anthem falls from the golden stars.

O pale Ophelia! beautiful as snow!
Yes child, you died, carried off by a river!
It was the winds descending from the great mountains of Norway
That spoke to you in low voices of better freedom.

It was a breath of wind, that, twisting your great hair,
Brought strange rumors to your dreaming mind;
It was your heart listening to the song of Nature
In the groans of the tree and the sighs of the nights;

It was the voice of mad seas, the great roar,
That shattered your child's heart, too human and too soft;
It was a handsome pale knight, a poor madman
Who one April morning sate mute at your knees!

Heaven! Love! Freedom! What a dream, oh poor crazed Girl!
You melted to him as snow does to a fire;
Your great visions strangled your words
And fearful Infinity terrified your blue eye!

And the poet says that by starlight
You come seeking, in the night, the flowers that you picked
And that he has seen on the water, lying in her long veils
White Ophelia floating, like a great lily.

-Arthur Rimbaud

Some biographical info on Rimbaud:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rimbaud

[John Barnes]

Will,

After your first post, I took the time to look up some poetry by
Rimbaud. I must say that the 4 or 5 verses which I read did in fact
hold my interest. He is an interesting author, cetrainly. I think
the translations I read were adequate. Perhaps some meaning intended
in plays on words was lost, but otherwise it was quite enjoyable. The
piece I most enjoyed was called Sun and Flesh. Long, but not
longwinded. Quite unusual to see this writing in 1870.

Just now I've read the biography that you specified. Wow, what a
life! How much turmoil can a man stand! A pity he gave up writing
poetry after the age of 21. He showed real promise. Still, it seems
that his work does endure, even with so little of it.

I find the quote that you provided from The Letter of the Seer to be
fascinating. Surely this is a man who was dedicated to writing
poetry, to having a vision to express to others. For, then how can
you show the world something new if you've not seen something new
yourself.

I've seen that in my life. When I was younger, I was mostly an
intellectual. But I questioned so many things and so fully that I
found our logical systems did not adequately explain the world in
which we live. I think that the poet must see beyond the purely
rational. He must be sensitive to the emotional, that which does not
fit into tiny boxes to be stored away. And then, with practice and
imagination, fueled by reading what other poets and authors have seen,
one can write with feeling, and express things that might be of value
to others.

Thanks again for the informatoin you provided in these two posts of
yours. I spent some time searching for Dale's surreal poetry. I
found a few verses, but not many just yet. I did stumble upon some
interesting conversations on what surrealism is. So there is plenty
to see on that avenue as well.

John

[Will Dockery]

Post by John Barnes
Will,
After your first post, I took the time to look up some poetry by
Rimbaud. I must say that the 4 or 5 verses which I read did in fact
hold my interest. He is an interesting author, cetrainly. I think
the translations I read were adequate. Perhaps some meaning intended
in plays on words was lost, but otherwise it was quite enjoyable. The
piece I most enjoyed was called Sun and Flesh. Long, but not
longwinded. Quite unusual to see this writing in 1870.
Just now I've read the biography that you specified. Wow, what a
life! How much turmoil can a man stand! A pity he gave up writing
poetry after the age of 21. He showed real promise. Still, it seems
that his work does endure, even with so little of it.
I find the quote that you provided from The Letter of the Seer to be
fascinating. Surely this is a man who was dedicated to writing
poetry, to having a vision to express to others. For, then how can
you show the world something new if you've not seen something new
yourself.
I've seen that in my life. When I was younger, I was mostly an
intellectual. But I questioned so many things and so fully that I
found our logical systems did not adequately explain the world in
which we live. I think that the poet must see beyond the purely
rational. He must be sensitive to the emotional, that which does not
fit into tiny boxes to be stored away. And then, with practice and
imagination, fueled by reading what other poets and authors have seen,
one can write with feeling, and express things that might be of value
to others.
Thanks again for the informatoin you provided in these two posts of
yours. I spent some time searching for Dale's surreal poetry. I
found a few verses, but not many just yet. I did stumble upon some
interesting conversations on what surrealism is. So there is plenty
to see on that avenue as well.
John

Just a quick note, as I want to get back to all your statements in detail a
bit later (my Brother Dave is finishing up the paperwork on buying a new car
and we'll shortly take it out on a ride through the /surreal streets/,
possibly a test run up through Atlanta, which is a tradition here with new
car buyers!) but here's some Dale Houstman poetry links for you to mull and
perhaps comment on, including my favorite:

Her Lark Colony

The blue stamp
of feet each night
is a collector's item

& her red tuba abandoned
by the army you pass
upon the trench's staircase
is a collector's item.

I'll not wake you abruptly
by folding her almond-white scarf
like her almond-white voice
in this absinthe-tasting century.

The white nuns
behind white pylons.
Naked white nuns,

cake white nuns,
salt white nuns
with salt white guns.

I'll not wake you abruptly
by folding her almond-white scarf
like her almond-white voice
in this absinthe-tasting century
which is a collector's item.

-Dale Houstman

A recent list compiled by George Dance:

[Some] poetry of Dale M. Houstman:

Alice is Talking Again [1983]:
"Alice is Talking Again"
"The Big Sleep"
"Mutant"
"Caucasian Sex Dramas"
"Pot Holder Day"
"Debate"
"Obituaries Printed on Bubblegum Cards"
"Jesus in Europe"
"Fabian's Dog"
"Those Glass Umbrellas"
"It is Raining"
"The Two Ends of Fantasy Peninsula"
"Old Money Dreams"
"The Uninvited Guest"
"After the Show"
http://www.magneticfields.org/dmh/Alice/covpage.html

[1999]
"The Two Young Girls, the Coffin and the Kettle Monky"
"The Very Quit Horse"
http://www.artvilla.com/plt/poetnewsmar99.html
"The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on Surrealism" [prose intro]
"Jade Stalk"
"Night's Sole flower is Your Eye"
"In a Nearby City (Pockets on Coffee)"
http://www.poetrylifeandtimes.com/poetnewsDec99.html

[2000]

"America"
"Eve"
"The Anarchist's Notebook"

http://www.poetrylifeandtimes.com/poetnewsApr00.html

[2002]
"The Cafe in a Crossroad"

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/dbbd9ac2e497714e

[John Barnes]

Will,

Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.

I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

John

[Will Dockery]

Post by John Barnes
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.

One of the links may show Houstman's pages of comix experiments, which
are also pretty interesting for various reasons. His interest in comix
led to one of his characters being used by DC Comics in the 1980s:

I found the original art for the Hasty Pudding page, including the
credit line "Created by Dale Houstman, age 30..."!

Loading Image...

Artwork Details:
Issue: 489
Page: 07
Media Type: Pencil and Ink
Art Type: Interior Page
Artist(s): Trevor Von Eeden (penciller)

A nice DIAL "H" for hero page with 2 REALLY odd male and female
superheroes!!!

Price: $ 65

From:
http://www.romitaman.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=428&ArtistId=1053&Det...

Here's the cover of Adventure #489, though it doesn't look like Hasty
Pudding made the cover:

Loading Image...

Post by John Barnes
Illustration of your Hasty Pudding character

http://jerome.galica.free.fr/dc%20comics/miniseries/DailH_Hasty_Puddi...

Post by John Barnes
----

http://www.talkaboutcomicbooks.com/group/rec.arts.comics.misc/message...

Post by John Barnes
Subject: Re: Dial "H" for Hero Question
View: Complete Thread (11 articles)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.dc.universe
Date: 2000/02/23
message

My question about "Dial H for Hero" is a self-serving one: is there

anyone

else here (besides me) who got one of their characters (hopefully not

as

Post by John Barnes

lame as mine) used in the second series?
DMH

Nope, not me, though I tried. Which character was yours? I have MOST of

the

2nd series.

I guess I was hoping I could sneak that by without having to tell!
It was Hasty Pudding: I am not sure which issue that is right now, and-
unlike many of you - I don't have my piles of comics organized. Hasty
Pudding could either go very fast or stand stock still. At least that was

my

Post by John Barnes
idea. It doesn't make much sense as far as physics goes...
It is sort of a minor thrill that in the hardback collection of Dc
Superheroes (a simple listing of all "their" creations the character is
mentioned. Still, I am waiting for the graphic novel!
"Hasty Pudding vs Herbie"
Anyone else to share the embarrassment with? I do know that Harlan Ellison
had a character in that series: SilverDonkey or something with Silverin

it!

Post by John Barnes
Dale

--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Toxin on Glass" by Shadowville Installation - song by Gene Woolfolk
Jr,Timothy Maxwell, Gary Frankfurth, & Will Dockery:
http://youtu.be/-XWUdCRbVnc

Post by John Barnes
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.
John

[John Barnes]

Post by Will Dockery
One of the links may show Houstman's pages of comix experiments, which
are also pretty interesting for various reasons. His interest in comix
I found the original art for the Hasty Pudding page, including the
credit line "Created by Dale Houstman, age 30..."!
http://www.romitaman.com/Images/Category_2/subcat_860/adv489p7.jpg

Will, yes, I had run accross that comic book character creation when I
was trolling through his old posts as you had suggested. An
interesting thing to have to your credit. I liked the single page
pen and ink drawing of the strip. Nicely done, it was.

However, I also got to see some of his surrealist drawings. Black
and white pen and ink. They are well done and certainly add to the
effect of his poetry by their inclusion with it.

John

[Will Dockery]

Post by John Barnes

Post by Will Dockery
One of the links may show Houstman's pages of comix experiments, which
are also pretty interesting for various reasons. His interest in comix
I found the original art for the Hasty Pudding page, including the
credit line "Created by Dale Houstman, age 30..."!
http://www.romitaman.com/Images/Category_2/subcat_860/adv489p7.jpg

Will, yes, I had run accross that comic book character creation when I
was trolling through his old posts as you had suggested. An
interesting thing to have to your credit. I liked the single page
pen and ink drawing of the strip. Nicely done, it was.

Yeah, I was pleased to have found the original art so easily... well
worth the mere $65 the guy is asking for it.

--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Toxin on Glass" by Shadowville Installation - song by Gene Woolfolk
Jr,Timothy Maxwell, Gary Frankfurth, & Will Dockery:
http://youtu.be/-XWUdCRbVnc

Post by John Barnes
However, I also got to see some of his surrealist drawings. Black
and white pen and ink. They are well done and certainly add to the
effect of his poetry by their inclusion with it.
John

[Rob]

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

You should read his thoughts on wee Willy Dockery:

"Your repeated emphasis on physical attributes as a source for insults
is only one more sign of your rabid inability to understand not only the
beatnik ethos, but also the humanity of poetry in general. You're just
another beer slugging thug in a million or two."

He's also endorsed the following:

"William, you are a dishonest
(cut, paste and snip), lazy
(can't even be arsed to proof read
your own dysentery), misogynistic
(all women who disagree with you
are trailer trash babes), scribbler,
of unspeakable shit that you then
gargle while falling about
the stage (witness any "video")."

The man clearly leavens surrealism with common sense.

Rob

[Will Dockery]

Post by Rob

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

"Your repeated emphasis on physical attributes as a source for insults

I /do/respond in kind... you kick me, I kick back.

In other words, the "physical attibute" slurs were tossed at me, and I
noticed that those tossing were pretty funny looking, themselves. You're a
good example, Mushmouth.

Post by Rob
is only one more sign of your rabid inability to understand not only the
beatnik ethos, but also the humanity of poetry in general. You're just
another beer slugging thug in a million or two."

"Beer slugging thug"... that may be a keeper!

Post by Rob
(cut, paste and snip),

Which you've been doing with the same projection for how many weeks now?

Post by Rob
lazy (can't even be arsed to proof read

Writes the mushmouthed old liar Rob Evans, who constantly makes spelling
mistakes and typos.

Post by Rob
misogynistic

And from the archived evidence of your vicious attacks on Vera, Pandora,
Sharon McElroy and other women, you thrive on your rude misogyny, Mushmouth.

Post by Rob
(all women who disagree with you
are trailer trash babes),

Another small lie from mushmouth Evans, since not "all" women are "trailer
trash babes", just one, and by her own admission.

Post by Rob
then gargle

Says mushmouth Evans, who has been shown to not only "gargle" slimeballs
during his recorded "performance" of "poetry" (chopped-up- prose), but to
spittle, spew, burble, and whistle-lisp his words, sounding like a stroke
victim, or simply a withered crone attempting to talk through a set of
rotten (see photo) teeth:

Loading Image.../200p...

"...However, sometimes the evening is kept free of superstar guests to
concentrate solely on contributions from the panoply of curious figures who
come out of the woodwork each month... from the anti- capitalist rants of
Rapunzel Wizard to... Rob Evans, mushmouth."

--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Toxin on Glass" by Shadowville Installation - song by Gene Woolfolk
Jr,Timothy Maxwell, Gary Frankfurth, & Will Dockery:
http://youtu.be/-XWUdCRbVnc

[Meat Plow]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:38:09 -0500, Will "LOOK I'M GEORGE DANCE" Dockery

Post by Will Dockery
you kick me, I kick back.

Hi George!

[Dennis M. Hammes]

Post by Will Dockery
I /do/respond in kind...

He kicks you, you kick you?
We know.

[Rob]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by Rob
is only one more sign of your rabid inability to understand not only the
beatnik ethos, but also the humanity of poetry in general. You're just
another beer slugging thug in a million or two."

"Beer slugging thug"... that may be a keeper!

I'm glad you're proud of this but there's more to you than just your
drug dependence:

William, you are a dishonest
(cut, paste and snip), lazy
(can't even be arsed to proof read
your own dysentery), misogynistic
(all women who disagree with you
are trailer trash babes), scribbler,
of unspeakable shit that you then
gargle while falling about
the stage (witness any "video").

Rob

[Will Dockery]

Post by Rob

Post by Will Dockery
"Beer slugging thug"... that may be a keeper!

I'm glad you're proud of this

I never claimed to be "proud" of it but I do recognize those aspects
of my persona.

Are you "proud" to be a gunkmouthed whistle-lisping liar?

--
"...there are five native American art forms that we've given to the
world: Jazz, of course. Musical comedy as we know it today. The
detective
story as crafted by Poe. The banjo. And comic books."
-Harlan Ellison

"Dream Tears" by W. Dockery-B. Mallard:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Wobble" by W. Dockery-H. Conley:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery

[Barbara's Cat]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by Rob

Post by Will Dockery
"Beer slugging thug"... that may be a keeper!

I'm glad you're proud of this

I never claimed to be "proud" of it

On the contrary, yes, you have, many times.

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.

"Build charscter?" Like doing LSD, working as little as possible, and
generally being a lazy good-for-nothing? Then I got plenty 'o'
character...My "interesting life" is mainly a long hard search for the
next rut. Don't like being caught out on open flatland...

Since you're getting all this from that rat's cloaca disguised as a
monkey's uncle Will, did he direct you to my own website - such as it
is? [Who has time for that shit?] There's plenty of my work there - both
visual and "more or less poetic" - so you could be disillusioned at a
much more rapid rate. The removal of aesthetic cataracts is performed
gratis...

Post by John Barnes
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

Who knows where surrealism is today? I know most of the living
surrealists, and - frankly - they're a confused lot, vainly awaiting the
return of the world's attention, and handwringing as the parade of fools
passes by their brightly decorated urinal warehouses. All Isms - at any
rate - have been buried beneath Desperatism, which is the feeble hand
wave of the future, as painted by Leroy Nieman on the back of a pack of
sugarless gum.

dmh

[Will Dockery]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.

"Build charscter?" Like doing LSD, working as little as possible, and
generally being a lazy good-for-nothing? Then I got plenty 'o'
character...My "interesting life" is mainly a long hard search for the
next rut. Don't like being caught out on open flatland...
Since you're getting all this from that rat's cloaca disguised as a
monkey's uncle Will, did he direct you to my own website - such as it
is? [Who has time for that shit?] There's plenty of my work there - both
visual and "more or less poetic" - so you could be disillusioned at a
much more rapid rate. The removal of aesthetic cataracts is performed
gratis...

The links I gave John were the ones George Dance assembled recently,
his favorite Housman, I assume... not sure if the pages of comix
manipulation was included, which I'd post if I had the time... maybe
later.

Just for the Hell of it, and since it is on topic, here's one of my
recent experiments in moving towards a Surrealist Poetry:

Ganesha Girl On Rankin.

Jesus' consort
statuesque beauty blindfolded

labia lipped skyscraper built on the spot
built where Lady Katherine lived
the whorehouse grocery
at the edge of Linwood Cemetary.

Old money still spins well
spends well.

Northside skyline of many colored glass
Fort Darkness walled in
the giant Temple of Mars visible
from behind the walls, silvery, ancient.

The glittering war machines and masks
not so visible ...

Ganesha Girl and silver skinned alien
sit with the projector.
Other worlds surround them.
Scattered money all over them.

A pyramid built from colored bells.
Clocks and machinery
I can see from on high ...

A giant housefly feeds on Green Island.

They stand and face West
as Jesus surveys Lee County
from on high.

Jesus' little sidekick
looks so lonely
dressed in Papal robes,
booklet of poems
and a big cross in his arms.

They're aware of the train wreck
near Goat Rock
instruments spilled from the boxcar.

Liquid bubble cube
ancient animal bones
other things, colored ceramic
at Jesus' feet ...

Jesus prepares to start up
and operate the Holy Machine.

They've turned their backs
on Shadowville
with its bells and jars,
cars, cupid and crowns,
chains, old clocks, an hour glass.

Ganesha Girl, happy in her bathing suit
floating on a cloud.

-Will Dockery

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

Who knows where surrealism is today? I know most of the living
surrealists, and - frankly - they're a confused lot, vainly awaiting the
return of the world's attention, and handwringing as the parade of fools
passes by their brightly decorated urinal warehouses. All Isms - at any
rate - have been buried beneath Desperatism, which is the feeble hand
wave of the future, as painted by Leroy Nieman on the back of a pack of
sugarless gum.

--
"...there are five native American art forms that we've given to the
world:
Jazz, of course. Musical comedy as we know it today. The detective
story as
crafted by Poe. The banjo. And comic books."
-Harlan Ellison

"Mirror Twins" by W. Dockery-B. Fowler:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Hasty Pudding" by W. Dockery-H. Conley:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery

[John Barnes]

An interesting poem, Will.

Plenty of material here for pondering.

John

[Will Dockery]

Post by John Barnes
An interesting poem, Will.
Plenty of material here for pondering.
John

Thanks, John, it was an entertaining experience, both having the dream the
imagery came from, and then trying to get the images down on paper... of
course a lot was lost after waking and trying to transcribe something like a
really fast moving film using only memory.

I noticed after I posted it that I didn't use the finished copy as published
in Playgrounds (the local arts-entertainment zine) this month
http://www.playgroundsmag.com , with small but significant (to me, at
least), changes:

To The Magic Store by Will Dockery

"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe

Rhino's music & poetry open mic, Thursdays:

Open mic & poetry readings are a great place to "air" out poems and songs,
and the very act of taking the stage can be very useful in determining what
"works" and who "gets" the work... if you don't have one or more in your
area, in fact even if you do, perhaps you'd consider starting one?

On October 18th I kicked off the fall season of open mic music & poetry at
Rhino's (1239 Broadway), every Thursday. At the same time my old pal Timothy
Maxwell wired Rhino's up as a Wifi hotspot, and is working to get the live
streaming internet broadcasts going... though it looks like not in time to
send out the Spy For Hire CD release party (Saturday November 3rd) but
/maybe/ by the homecoming show by local heroes Winter Sounds (catch their
video on MTVU, playing 30 times a week) at Rhino's on November 10th. Keep
hope alive...

Anyway, details on the Rhino's open mic music & poetry: Sign up at 9pm,
upstairs on the mezzanine, where the internet cafe style is set, also serves
as a "green room" for musicians and poets to go over thier setlists, tune,
and meet others of the similar wavelength, or just have a spot to check
MySpace or whatever, 11pm to 1am is the alloted time for the performances.

Whatever style, genre or form of music or poetry you work in, everyone is
welcome... as always, the only absolutely uncensored open mic in
Shadowville.

Ganesha Girl On Rankin.
Jesus' consort
statuesque beauty blindfolded

labia lipped skyscraper built on the spot
built where Lady lived
the sporting house grocery
at the edge of Linwood Cemetary.

Old money still spins well
spends well.

Northside skyline of many colored glass
Fort Darkness walled in
the giant Temple of Mars visible
from behind the walls, silvery, ancient.

The glittering war machines and masks
not so visible ...

Ganesha Girl and silver skinned alien
sit with the projector.
Other worlds surround them.
Scattered money all over them.

A pyramid built from colored bells.
Clocks and machinery
I can see from on high ...

A giant housefly feeds on Green Island.

They stand and face West
as Jesus surveys Lee County
from on high.

Jesus' little sidekick
looks so lonely
dressed in Papal robes,
booklet of poems
and a big cross in his arms.

They're aware of the train wreck
near Goat Rock
instruments spilled from the boxcar.

Liquid bubble cube
ancient animal bones
other things, colored ceramic
at Jesus' feet ...

Jesus prepares to start up
and operate the Holy Machine.

They've turned their backs
on Shadowville
with its bells and jars,
cars, cupid and crowns,
chains, old clocks, an hour glass.

Ganesha Girl, happy in her bathing suit
floating on a cloud.

-Will Dockery

Post by John Barnes
What have you won?

Good question, one of my favorite winning moments was when I won the "top
poet" in the citywide Perky Awards back in 1998, since you asked.

And interestingly, I recently came across the Google News archive of the
newspaper story that announced the winners:

Google's new "News Archive"

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?tab=wn

Here's a bit from when I won the "top poet" award in 1998:

COLUMBUS BOOK STORE EXCHANGES ADDRESS
$2.95 - Ledger-Enquirer - NewsBank - Apr 23, 1998
Other winners were: Steve Valentini, best actor; Kelli Franklin, best
actress; ``the Wizard of Oz,'' best theatrical production; Will Dockery, top
poet; ...

While searching these news archives for "henry conley" brings up more of
this list of winners, including his award for best harmonica work in town:

... guitarist; Jose Castellanos, Jr., bassist; Tom Chadwick, keyboardist;
Kile Hussey, drummer; Henry Conley, harmonica; Keni Thomas, male vocalist;
Lady V, ...

Published on April 23, 1998, Page B1, Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA)

The "News" archive contains other various bits from the life & times of
"Will Dockery", since you have such and obvious fascination with the
subject:

The quote I gave the reporter when Dylan came to town a decade ago:

YOUNG AND OLD, FANS INSPIRED BY LEGENDARY FOLK SINGER
$2.95 - Ledger-Enquirer - NewsBank - Oct 31, 1997

Columbus poet Will Dockery called Dylan A pacesetter for writers.
Dockerycredited Dylan for inspiring him to begin writing. ``every time he
puts out A new ...

Published on October 31, 1997, Page A1, Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA)

From the same year, the article on Barfield's scary Vietnam paintings:

HOW GROSS THY ART
$2.95 - Ledger-Enquirer - NewsBank - Jul 13, 1997

Will Dockery lets friends -- artists, poets and madmen, Will says -- store
their work there. Among those artists is Dan Barfield, ...

Published on July 13, 1997, Page B1, Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA)

And when I hit the front page last year opening for the Spaceseed show:

TO DO TODAY, LET'S ROCK OUT

Like the trippy sounds of Pink Floyd or Spiritualized? Check out progressive
rockers Spaceseed, a band that augments guitars with keyboards and even a
sci-fi sounding theremin. The band plays tonight at SoHo Bar & Grill, 5751
Milgen Road, Columbus. Will Dockery's Shadowville All-Stars open the show at
10 p.m. It's open to ages 21 and up. Cover is $5. Call 706-568-3316.

Published on June 16, 2006, Page A1, Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA)

And so on...

[John Barnes]

Post by Dale Houstman
Since you're getting all this from that rat's cloaca disguised as a
monkey's uncle Will, did he direct you to my own website - such as it
is? [Who has time for that shit?] There's plenty of my work there - both
visual and "more or less poetic" - so you could be disillusioned at a
much more rapid rate. The removal of aesthetic cataracts is performed
gratis...

Will pointed me to some sites. One of them may be your main site, at
least it had a complete book in it along with some artwork. I've
been reading old posts of yours, in particular comments and
discussions from about 8 or 9 years ago in the alt.surrealism group.
Plenty of heated discussion. In one thread was mostly the argument
between you and others who were explaining Surealism as a movement and
several others who wished to see it only as a style of art. They
didn't seem to understand it it all.

Then there was a thread which seemed to question the validity of
Surrealism in today's world at all.

I can see the value of a movement such as Surrealism, it is a
Philosophy in many regards. And I see that it has definite merits.
However, I have to wonder if the philosophy of the original movement
will be overshadowed by the opinion of art critics and others that it
is merely a style in art. As this idea takes root in the cultural
consiousness, it will become harder and harder for purists to fight.
But as you say, the purists are running in short supply.

I must be honest in saying that I rather envy your attachment to a
movement of any sort. Poetry has become a collection of niche
markets. You have a long history of life as a Surrealist, living in a
commune even. And so this gives you credentials in the poetic
world. I am a lover of the Romantics, Keats, Shelly and Poe mostly.
But also Millay and Thomas. I love the artwork of Rene Magritte, and
I get poetic inspiration from him. But I have little or no interest
in the beat poets. Maybe if I had lived at the time and heard the
works performed with jazz and rhythm I might have enjoyed it. I feel
that black poets are bringing the music and rhythm back to poetry that
has been missing for a while. I've heard some excellent group
performances of work of this sort. But again getting back to
movements and niches. I would imagine that you have looked at the
Poet's Market books. What is it 450 pages with 5-10 journals per
page for about 3000 different journals???? And that was in 2002. I
have a few poems in poetry journals. I once quit my job to become a
poet and for 8 months I did nothing but read, write and submit. Until
I got fed up. If you don't have a niche it is very hard to get
established in any regard. You have that at least. And your work is
good when judged by the proper aesthetic. Plus you do artwork which
is also an added factor.

So, I wouldn't feel so very bad about all of this. You have a niche
that you can go to to get published. I do not. Perhaps Surrealism as
a movement is nearing an end. But maybe not. It may get a new
birth. How, I cannot say. I only believe that there needs to be
movements of this sort where poets gather togehter and make something
real happen. Have you any good ideas along these lines?

I had rather hoped that I could find something of that sort here on
the Usenet. However, most of what I'm seeing is people more
interested in making personal attacks on one another than on thinking,
learing or building. It is a duelist mentality where everyone wants
to be a big winner. Let them all hang out at alt.troll and fight
amonst themselves. I have little patience for it. Still there are
others, such as yourself, who have true artistic motives in mind and
who contribute to the knowledge that is available in these groups.

Thank you for your post.

John

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman
Since you're getting all this from that rat's cloaca disguised as a
monkey's uncle Will, did he direct you to my own website - such as it
is? [Who has time for that shit?] There's plenty of my work there - both
visual and "more or less poetic" - so you could be disillusioned at a
much more rapid rate. The removal of aesthetic cataracts is performed
gratis...

Will pointed me to some sites. One of them may be your main site, at
least it had a complete book in it along with some artwork.

He loves sending people there...he knows that that book is only a
collection of some of my earliest (and far from best) work. Here's the
site...

http://www.skypoint.com/~dmh7/GhostPosters/Borborygmae/

...for what it's worth.

Post by John Barnes
I've
been reading old posts of yours, in particular comments and
discussions from about 8 or 9 years ago in the alt.surrealism group.
Plenty of heated discussion. In one thread was mostly the argument
between you and others who were explaining Surealism as a movement and
several others who wished to see it only as a style of art. They
didn't seem to understand it it all.

Then they were the only ones who didn't understand it. Now I'm the one
who doesn't. At least as a movement: I've had a lot of
dealings/collaborations with worldwide surrealist group members over the
years, and frankly - as an orgainzation that gets things done - it's
somewhat less effective than FEMA. I still support the "philosophy" but
find that the group interactions (so vital to the original group) are
often less than satisfying, and usually abandoned before anything
"untoward" has a chance to develop. Still, the occasional collaboration
with a single surrealist here and there can be vital. But the groups are
argumentative and full of blowhards...

Post by John Barnes
Then there was a thread which seemed to question the validity of
Surrealism in today's world at all.
I can see the value of a movement such as Surrealism, it is a
Philosophy in many regards. And I see that it has definite merits.
However, I have to wonder if the philosophy of the original movement
will be overshadowed by the opinion of art critics and others that it
is merely a style in art. As this idea takes root in the cultural
consiousness, it will become harder and harder for purists to fight.
But as you say, the purists are running in short supply.

Myself, I've given up any fight to "inoculate" the general public
against false ideas about surrealism: I simply don't care what the
collective morons of the world think is real anymore. The
misunderstanding of surrealism is the least of the world's
misapprehensions. At any rate, the "facts in the case of surrealism" are
written down in many places, and whether or the tickaboos of art
criticism or the tuckablobs of the village square think clearly (or
rather don't think at all) on the subject will eventually be beside the
point. Most serious art historians know that surrealism was not an art
movement mainly or even chiefly: it was a poetic movement in which the
members tried to define "poetry" as everything that wasn't nailed down.

Post by John Barnes
I must be honest in saying that I rather envy your attachment to a
movement of any sort. Poetry has become a collection of niche
markets. You have a long history of life as a Surrealist, living in a
commune even. And so this gives you credentials in the poetic
world.

Oh god! Now I can finally get into the Robert Desnos Bar and Grill...

Post by John Barnes
I am a lover of the Romantics, Keats, Shelly and Poe mostly.
But also Millay and Thomas. I love the artwork of Rene Magritte, and
I get poetic inspiration from him. But I have little or no interest
in the beat poets. Maybe if I had lived at the time and heard the
works performed with jazz and rhythm I might have enjoyed it. I feel
that black poets are bringing the music and rhythm back to poetry that
has been missing for a while. I've heard some excellent group
performances of work of this sort. But again getting back to
movements and niches. I would imagine that you have looked at the
Poet's Market books. What is it 450 pages with 5-10 journals per
page for about 3000 different journals???? And that was in 2002. I
have a few poems in poetry journals. I once quit my job to become a
poet and for 8 months I did nothing but read, write and submit. Until
I got fed up. If you don't have a niche it is very hard to get
established in any regard. You have that at least. And your work is
good when judged by the proper aesthetic. Plus you do artwork which
is also an added factor.

I'm a multi-talented loser...

Post by John Barnes
So, I wouldn't feel so very bad about all of this. You have a niche
that you can go to to get published. I do not.

Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps Surrealism as
a movement is nearing an end. But maybe not. It may get a new
birth. How, I cannot say.

The world usually refuses to go through the same muck again.

Post by John Barnes
I only believe that there needs to be
movements of this sort where poets gather togehter and make something
real happen. Have you any good ideas along these lines?

Sorta: I hate groups. They were always more bother than they were worth.

I do agree that the world needs collective action LIKE surrealism, but I
don't think surrealism (under that monicker) will be the carrier of glad
tidings and gunfire to the halls of power. Nor am I particularly
inspired by the texture of our times: something like cold oatmeal
peppered with hot bullets.

Post by John Barnes
I had rather hoped that I could find something of that sort here on
the Usenet. However, most of what I'm seeing is people more
interested in making personal attacks on one another than on thinking,
learing or building.

The world's a mealy apple...

Post by John Barnes
It is a duelist mentality where everyone wants
to be a big winner. Let them all hang out at alt.troll and fight
amonst themselves. I have little patience for it. Still there are
others, such as yourself, who have true artistic motives in mind and
who contribute to the knowledge that is available in these groups.
Thank you for your post.

Hell- you're welcome.

dmh

[Will Dockery]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Will pointed me to some sites. One of them may be your main site, at
least it had a complete book in it along with some artwork.

He loves sending people there...

Not really, since I'm not sure which site John is referring to...

he knows that that book is only a

Post by Dale Houstman
collection of some of my earliest (and far from best) work.

I sent John (or reposted it here, actually) the stuff George Dance
collected a list of (with links), and I may or may not have seen all
of it:

"...A recent list compiled by George Dance:

[Some] poetry of Dale M. Houstman:

Alice is Talking Again [1983]:
"Alice is Talking Again"
"The Big Sleep"
"Mutant"
"Caucasian Sex Dramas"
"Pot Holder Day"
"Debate"
"Obituaries Printed on Bubblegum Cards"
"Jesus in Europe"
"Fabian's Dog"
"Those Glass Umbrellas"
"It is Raining"
"The Two Ends of Fantasy Peninsula"
"Old Money Dreams"
"The Uninvited Guest"
"After the Show"
http://www.magneticfields.org/dmh/Alice/covpage.html

[1999]
"The Two Young Girls, the Coffin and the Kettle Monky"
"The Very Quit Horse"
http://www.artvilla.com/plt/poetnewsmar99.html
"The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on Surrealism" [prose
intro]
"Jade Stalk"
"Night's Sole flower is Your Eye"
"In a Nearby City (Pockets on Coffee)"
http://www.poetrylifeandtimes.com/poetnewsDec99.html

[2000]

"America"
"Eve"
"The Anarchist's Notebook"

http://www.poetrylifeandtimes.com/poetnewsApr00.html

[2002]
"The Cafe in a Crossroad"

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/dbbd9ac2e4...

Here's the

Post by Dale Houstman
site...
http://www.skypoint.com/~dmh7/GhostPosters/Borborygmae/
...for what it's worth.

Post by John Barnes
I've
been reading old posts of yours, in particular comments and
discussions from about 8 or 9 years ago in the alt.surrealism group.
Plenty of heated discussion. In one thread was mostly the argument
between you and others who were explaining Surealism as a movement and
several others who wished to see it only as a style of art. They
didn't seem to understand it it all.

Then they were the only ones who didn't understand it. Now I'm the one
who doesn't. At least as a movement: I've had a lot of
dealings/collaborations with worldwide surrealist group members over the
years, and frankly - as an orgainzation that gets things done - it's
somewhat less effective than FEMA. I still support the "philosophy" but
find that the group interactions (so vital to the original group) are
often less than satisfying, and usually abandoned before anything
"untoward" has a chance to develop. Still, the occasional collaboration
with a single surrealist here and there can be vital. But the groups are
argumentative and full of blowhards...

Post by John Barnes
Then there was a thread which seemed to question the validity of
Surrealism in today's world at all.
I can see the value of a movement such as Surrealism, it is a
Philosophy in many regards. And I see that it has definite merits.
However, I have to wonder if the philosophy of the original movement
will be overshadowed by the opinion of art critics and others that it
is merely a style in art. As this idea takes root in the cultural
consiousness, it will become harder and harder for purists to fight.
But as you say, the purists are running in short supply.

Myself, I've given up any fight to "inoculate" the general public
against false ideas about surrealism: I simply don't care what the
collective morons of the world think is real anymore. The
misunderstanding of surrealism is the least of the world's
misapprehensions. At any rate, the "facts in the case of surrealism" are
written down in many places, and whether or the tickaboos of art
criticism or the tuckablobs of the village square think clearly (or
rather don't think at all) on the subject will eventually be beside the
point. Most serious art historians know that surrealism was not an art
movement mainly or even chiefly: it was a poetic movement in which the
members tried to define "poetry" as everything that wasn't nailed down.

Post by John Barnes
I must be honest in saying that I rather envy your attachment to a
movement of any sort. Poetry has become a collection of niche
markets. You have a long history of life as a Surrealist, living in a
commune even. And so this gives you credentials in the poetic
world.

Oh god! Now I can finally get into the Robert Desnos Bar and Grill...

Post by John Barnes
I am a lover of the Romantics, Keats, Shelly and Poe mostly.
But also Millay and Thomas. I love the artwork of Rene Magritte, and
I get poetic inspiration from him. But I have little or no interest
in the beat poets. Maybe if I had lived at the time and heard the
works performed with jazz and rhythm I might have enjoyed it. I feel
that black poets are bringing the music and rhythm back to poetry that
has been missing for a while. I've heard some excellent group
performances of work of this sort. But again getting back to
movements and niches. I would imagine that you have looked at the
Poet's Market books. What is it 450 pages with 5-10 journals per
page for about 3000 different journals???? And that was in 2002. I
have a few poems in poetry journals. I once quit my job to become a
poet and for 8 months I did nothing but read, write and submit. Until
I got fed up. If you don't have a niche it is very hard to get
established in any regard. You have that at least. And your work is
good when judged by the proper aesthetic. Plus you do artwork which
is also an added factor.

I'm a multi-talented loser...

Post by John Barnes
So, I wouldn't feel so very bad about all of this. You have a niche
that you can go to to get published. I do not.

Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps Surrealism as
a movement is nearing an end. But maybe not. It may get a new
birth. How, I cannot say.

The world usually refuses to go through the same muck again.

Post by John Barnes
I only believe that there needs to be
movements of this sort where poets gather togehter and make something
real happen. Have you any good ideas along these lines?

Sorta: I hate groups. They were always more bother than they were worth.
I do agree that the world needs collective action LIKE surrealism, but I
don't think surrealism (under that monicker) will be the carrier of glad
tidings and gunfire to the halls of power. Nor am I particularly
inspired by the texture of our times: something like cold oatmeal
peppered with hot bullets.

Post by John Barnes
I had rather hoped that I could find something of that sort here on
the Usenet. However, most of what I'm seeing is people more
interested in making personal attacks on one another than on thinking,
learing or building.

The world's a mealy apple...

Post by John Barnes
It is a duelist mentality where everyone wants
to be a big winner. Let them all hang out at alt.troll and fight
amonst themselves. I have little patience for it. Still there are
others, such as yourself, who have true artistic motives in mind and
who contribute to the knowledge that is available in these groups.
Thank you for your post.

Hell- you're welcome.

--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars

"Toxin on Glass" by Shadowville Installation - song by Gene Woolfolk
Jr,Timothy Maxwell, Gary Frankfurth, & Will Dockery:
http://youtu.be/-XWUdCRbVnc

[John Barnes]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Will pointed me to some sites. One of them may be your main site, at
least it had a complete book in it along with some artwork.

He loves sending people there...he knows that that book is only a
collection of some of my earliest (and far from best) work. Here's the
site...
http://www.skypoint.com/~dmh7/GhostPosters/Borborygmae/
...for what it's worth.

Dale, thank you for pointing me to your site. I've spent an hour or
so rummaging though it and reading several of the newer poems. Some
hit me dead on. I like the way you develop a poem. Call it surreal
or whatever there is a flow to it that makes internal sense to me. I
tend to write shorter poems by and large. And while you have surreal
objectives in mind, I tend to like to explore dreaming, or the inner
world. I have put together three volumes of poetry and they are
available at this site, should you care to take a look.

http://stores.lulu.com/johnbarnes

I will send you privately another web address that you can puruse at
your leisure.

Post by Dale Houstman
Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

I agree. With upwards of 3000 journals out there, what it the point
in getting published in one or a few of them. Who actually reads
these journals, I ask myself. I tend to think that by and large the
people purchasing them are indivuals who have copy in them. And often
they only read what they put in there. Now I will admit that there
are some journals that are established and that do get read somewhat.
However, the question is, how does one get into one of these journals.
I have a friend who I knew from college. He was a poet and an English
major. I really admired his work. But I was talking to him recently
and I asked him if he was writing much poetry. He said he hasn't
written since 1997. He has a masters degree in English and he was a
University creative writing teacher for a while. But he concluded
that it is all a club. And if you're not in the club you can forget
about it. I suppose he meant that you have to be a Phd in English and
you have to maybe be an editor of a journal so that you can trade
publishing with other editors that you know. I really don't know.
But I will say, getting noticed, and I mean really noticed is hard
these days. The way to become a famous poet is to be a songwriter.
Not that I necessarily consider that poetry but that is what people
will pay for. The average joe on the street will buy and listen to an
album. But when will they buy a volume of poetry? Maybe they will
buy an established poet like Keats or Dickenson or some other fully
established poet. But how do you get established like that today?
Where is the movement in poetry of this time? The fifties had the
beats. But then in the 60's poetry went to the bards. Now I like
Bob Dylan and I enjoy his poetery. I also like Joni Mitchell. There
are others. But really what movements are alive in poetry today???

I'll tell you what I see in poetry. A lot of strange stuff. We have
poetry slams where people go out and compete with poems. And the best
peformance piece wins. Some styles of poetry work well in that
forum. I don't really care for it. Can you imagine Haiku night at
the poetry slam???

Often times political scenarios bring about a new movement in art.
That certainly was a part of the music scene in the sixties. Less so
since then. Although Joni and Dylan still write political pieces.

But, since we have a volunteer army and no draft, the force of today's
attempts at starting a movement are somehwhat blunted.

You would think that with the power of the Internet to bring people of
similar interests together we could see the formation of some new
colusion within art. Something new, some banner to rally around. And
I still think that is possible. But people have to stop pissing on
each other for petty reasons and have to start looking at what we have
in common and what we can do together. I guess I'm being
unrealistic. Movements of this sort tend to require the work of a
charismatic leader who can rally the troops together much as Breton
did for Surrealism.

Pesonally, I would like to see a return to beauty in poetry. We have
plenty of ugly poetry. Plenty of political poetry. We have people
writing about shit, as though that were wothy of versification. Where
is the beauty of the Romantics? What about the value of the creative
imagination to invent the beautiful? That is my question.

Post by Dale Houstman
I do agree that the world needs collective action LIKE surrealism, but I
don't think surrealism (under that monicker) will be the carrier of glad
tidings and gunfire to the halls of power. Nor am I particularly
inspired by the texture of our times: something like cold oatmeal
peppered with hot bullets.

I agree. But when will this occur? And who will bring it about? Will
it be a movement mostly about a new or reborn aesthetic, or will it be
of a political nature. Or, as was in the case for Surrealism,
something of a combination of the two?

John

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Will pointed me to some sites. One of them may be your main site, at
least it had a complete book in it along with some artwork.

He loves sending people there...he knows that that book is only a
collection of some of my earliest (and far from best) work. Here's the
site...
http://www.skypoint.com/~dmh7/GhostPosters/Borborygmae/
...for what it's worth.

Dale, thank you for pointing me to your site. I've spent an hour or
so rummaging though it and reading several of the newer poems. Some
hit me dead on. I like the way you develop a poem. Call it surreal
or whatever there is a flow to it that makes internal sense to me. I
tend to write shorter poems by and large. And while you have surreal
objectives in mind, I tend to like to explore dreaming, or the inner
world. I have put together three volumes of poetry and they are
available at this site, should you care to take a look.
http://stores.lulu.com/johnbarnes
I will send you privately another web address that you can puruse at
your leisure.

Got it and will do...

I tend to actually think of the poetic process as relatively
"superficial" (i.e. related to surface effects) rather than "deep": to
me it is really a matter of maniplating collected material into a series
of words and images that (as Breton put it) "make love to one another on
the page". It has to seem as if it means...

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman
Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

I agree. With upwards of 3000 journals out there, what it the point
in getting published in one or a few of them. Who actually reads
these journals, I ask myself. I tend to think that by and large the
people purchasing them are indivuals who have copy in them. And often
they only read what they put in there. Now I will admit that there
are some journals that are established and that do get read somewhat.
However, the question is, how does one get into one of these journals.

From what I gather, it's a matter of being in the right place at the
right time, and not hitting on the editor's spouse, or insulting his/her
favorite musician/politician/porn star/breakfast roll. Just another game
among many others. I had a VERY good chance to once be "installed" in
the upper echelons of the local poetry scene, with all the subsequent
access to media and attention that usually entails. But I (purposefully)
insulted several "important" people's sense of propriety, or (when that
didn't deter the buggers) their own persons, to their own faces (a few
had more than one available). It's a game of personalities, of
connecvtions, just like everything else. There's little of poetry in it:
the poetry exists to serve the agenda, whatever it might be. So here in
Minneapolis, you get a local "Asian poet" (whom I knew personally and
abhorred personally), a number of "women poets" and "gay poets" and
whatever other niche is to filled. I imagine there might be an empty
"contrary surrealist poet" niche sitting out there, but they can fill it
with Cinnabuns for all I care.

Post by John Barnes
I have a friend who I knew from college. He was a poet and an English
major. I really admired his work. But I was talking to him recently
and I asked him if he was writing much poetry. He said he hasn't
written since 1997. He has a masters degree in English and he was a
University creative writing teacher for a while. But he concluded
that it is all a club.

Well - I see no need to give up poetry just because there's a club which
is trying to corner the market, but I understand how frustration can
accomplish surrender.

Post by John Barnes
And if you're not in the club you can forget
about it. I suppose he meant that you have to be a Phd in English and
you have to maybe be an editor of a journal so that you can trade
publishing with other editors that you know. I really don't know.
But I will say, getting noticed, and I mean really noticed is hard
these days.

Notice yourself being unnoticed: it really is quite good enough, and
less bothersome in the long haul.

Post by John Barnes
The way to become a famous poet is to be a songwriter.
Not that I necessarily consider that poetry but that is what people
will pay for. The average joe on the street will buy and listen to an
album. But when will they buy a volume of poetry? Maybe they will
buy an established poet like Keats or Dickenson or some other fully
established poet. But how do you get established like that today?

You're asking the wrong guy: these are issues I don't consider. To me,
the creative act is the end all and be-all of poetry: the rest I leave
to refrigerator salesmen.

Post by John Barnes
Where is the movement in poetry of this time?

Underground, in mother's basement? Marcel Duchamp said in the future the
only way to accompilsh art would be to take it underground and -
basically - out of the race. There's still a lot of good work being
done, but I rarely bother to keep up anymore. And one has to consider
that Western culture is a dying item in the butcher display, so what
we've got left is either anonymity (either pleasurable or frustrating)
or the sad parade of glossy academic Whitman samplers. There is no
"center" and most of what I see is pastiche, which is the usual ploy of
an art that has recognized its best days are behind it.

Post by John Barnes
The fifties had the
beats. But then in the 60's poetry went to the bards. Now I like
Bob Dylan and I enjoy his poetery. I also like Joni Mitchell. There
are others. But really what movements are alive in poetry today???

Well - the last I payed any attention to was the Language Poets (Charles
Bernstein, Nick Piombino, Susan Howe, etc etc) which I still find
interesting. If a bit cold at times. I imagine there might have been a
dozen little self-named polyps that have sprung up since, although they
are all part of what I call Beside-The-Pointillism.

Post by John Barnes
I'll tell you what I see in poetry. A lot of strange stuff. We have
poetry slams where people go out and compete with poems.

I HATE those things: poetry as a drag race! Just the ticket...

Post by John Barnes
And the best
peformance piece wins. Some styles of poetry work well in that
forum. I don't really care for it. Can you imagine Haiku night at
the poetry slam???

From what I've read of modern english-language haiku, I'd rather not.
most people don't have the delicate sensibility (fake as it is) for such
stuff.

Post by John Barnes
Often times political scenarios bring about a new movement in art.
That certainly was a part of the music scene in the sixties. Less so
since then. Although Joni and Dylan still write political pieces.
But, since we have a volunteer army and no draft, the force of today's
attempts at starting a movement are somehwhat blunted.

Yup...Bring back the draft to salvage the poetry! Imagine that as a
campaign slogan...

Post by John Barnes
You would think that with the power of the Internet to bring people of
similar interests together we could see the formation of some new
colusion within art.

It's actually TOO much freedom - if you can imagine that.

Post by John Barnes
Something new, some banner to rally around. And
I still think that is possible. But people have to stop pissing on
each other for petty reasons and have to start looking at what we have
in common and what we can do together. I guess I'm being
unrealistic. Movements of this sort tend to require the work of a
charismatic leader who can rally the troops together much as Breton
did for Surrealism.

Marx called it "alienation" which is one of the core goals of capitalism.

Post by John Barnes
Pesonally, I would like to see a return to beauty in poetry. We have
plenty of ugly poetry.

I think I know what you mean: I flirt about with the stuff myself. A
friend of mine once described my poetry as "the skeleton of Romanticism"
and Breton said surrealism was the tail of Romanticism, albeit a very
prehensile tail...

Post by John Barnes
Plenty of political poetry. We have people
writing about shit, as though that were wothy of versification.

It might be: Rimbaud wasn't above scatalogica.

Post by John Barnes
Where
is the beauty of the Romantics? What about the value of the creative
imagination to invent the beautiful? That is my question.

It all sounds so elite, right? But I concur in part...

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman
I do agree that the world needs collective action LIKE surrealism, but I
don't think surrealism (under that monicker) will be the carrier of glad
tidings and gunfire to the halls of power. Nor am I particularly
inspired by the texture of our times: something like cold oatmeal
peppered with hot bullets.

I agree. But when will this occur? And who will bring it about? Will
it be a movement mostly about a new or reborn aesthetic, or will it be
of a political nature. Or, as was in the case for Surrealism,
something of a combination of the two?

I think we might hope for a Poetry of Decay and Decline...

dmh

[John Barnes]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Dale, thank you for pointing me to your site. I've spent an hour or
so rummaging though it and reading several of the newer poems. Some
hit me dead on. I like the way you develop a poem. Call it surreal
or whatever there is a flow to it that makes internal sense to me. I
tend to write shorter poems by and large. And while you have surreal
objectives in mind, I tend to like to explore dreaming, or the inner
world. I have put together three volumes of poetry and they are
available at this site, should you care to take a look.
http://stores.lulu.com/johnbarnes
I will send you privately another web address that you can puruse at
your leisure.

Got it and will do...

Thanks.

Post by Dale Houstman
I tend to actually think of the poetic process as relatively
"superficial" (i.e. related to surface effects) rather than "deep": to
me it is really a matter of maniplating collected material into a series
of words and images that (as Breton put it) "make love to one another on
the page". It has to seem as if it means...

I agree that much of the making of a good poem is presenting words and
images that converse with each other as you read and imagine the
piece.

However I believe that if you don't have at some level a deeper
understanding of images and how they relate to one another in the flow
of thought/image/meaning you won't be able to produce material of much
value. It will come off as cold or disjointed.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman
Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

I agree. With upwards of 3000 journals out there, what it the point
in getting published in one or a few of them. Who actually reads
these journals, I ask myself. I tend to think that by and large the
people purchasing them are indivuals who have copy in them. And often
they only read what they put in there. Now I will admit that there
are some journals that are established and that do get read somewhat.
However, the question is, how does one get into one of these journals.

From what I gather, it's a matter of being in the right place at the
right time, and not hitting on the editor's spouse, or insulting his/her
favorite musician/politician/porn star/breakfast roll. Just another game
among many others. I had a VERY good chance to once be "installed" in
the upper echelons of the local poetry scene, with all the subsequent
access to media and attention that usually entails. But I (purposefully)
insulted several "important" people's sense of propriety, or (when that
didn't deter the buggers) their own persons, to their own faces (a few
had more than one available). It's a game of personalities, of
the poetry exists to serve the agenda, whatever it might be. So here in
Minneapolis, you get a local "Asian poet" (whom I knew personally and
abhorred personally), a number of "women poets" and "gay poets" and
whatever other niche is to filled. I imagine there might be an empty
"contrary surrealist poet" niche sitting out there, but they can fill it
with Cinnabuns for all I care.

Given that good chance to get installed in the local poetry circles, I
would probably have taken it. However, I don't know what you didn't
like about the arrangement and you likely had very good reasons for
feeling as you did. But what does it warrant you in the end? Some
limited fame, mostly in a local circle. How many local circles are
there and how does one rise above being a local poet to having more
established respect? Well, I really don't know. Like you say, a lot
of it may have to do with luck. Being in the right place at the right
time. Catching the eye of someone who is well established who may
give you a chance to go further. But who is really established
these days? Maya Angelou comes to mind. Robert Bly. But there are
so few. This is what was nice about Surrealism when it was a strong
movement. You could join the movement and have some hopes of
attaining renown in that way. Even then a lot revolved around
politics. I suppose the pursuit of fame tends to do that. Unless you
are like Van Gogh and you are spurned most of your life only to be
picked up and made famous after your death. But then if you do not
write true to your own aesthetic and if you don't create something of
value, then what is the point of writing in the first place. And if
politics turn your stomach then I can see simply settling down and
writing for the pleasure of it. I tend to do that myself. I know how
much work is invloved in pursing some kind of recognition. I tell
myself I may pursue it after I retire. But I also know that to a
large degree the type of poetry I like to write is not in vogue. So,
that annoys me. But I don't plan to change. And that is me. Has
always been me. I won't kowtow to any philosophy or style just to win
brownie points or to be accepted by the status quo. Even if it is
calling itself the avant-garde.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
I have a friend who I knew from college. He was a poet and an English
major. I really admired his work. But I was talking to him recently
and I asked him if he was writing much poetry. He said he hasn't
written since 1997. He has a masters degree in English and he was a
University creative writing teacher for a while. But he concluded
that it is all a club.

Well - I see no need to give up poetry just because there's a club which
is trying to corner the market, but I understand how frustration can
accomplish surrender.

Yes, it surprised me. I never would have thought he would quit
writing. Now he is doing freelance photography and article writing
for a newspaper, but looking to get back into teaching. He still
loves Chinese and Japanese authors and Haiku in particular.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
And if you're not in the club you can forget
about it. I suppose he meant that you have to be a Phd in English and
you have to maybe be an editor of a journal so that you can trade
publishing with other editors that you know. I really don't know.
But I will say, getting noticed, and I mean really noticed is hard
these days.

Notice yourself being unnoticed: it really is quite good enough, and
less bothersome in the long haul.

I suppose you are right. I have found some peace in just sharing my
work with a limited number of people. Personally, I enjoy creating
work and seeing it develop over time. Still, if chance would present
itself, I might pursue it. Probably not for some years, however. I
have a family to feed.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Where is the movement in poetry of this time?

Underground, in mother's basement? Marcel Duchamp said in the future the
only way to accompilsh art would be to take it underground and -
basically - out of the race. There's still a lot of good work being
done, but I rarely bother to keep up anymore. And one has to consider
that Western culture is a dying item in the butcher display, so what
we've got left is either anonymity (either pleasurable or frustrating)
or the sad parade of glossy academic Whitman samplers. There is no
"center" and most of what I see is pastiche, which is the usual ploy of
an art that has recognized its best days are behind it.

That is an interesting thought--that western culture is dying. I
don't know if it is true or not. But I do think that poetry is
suffering as an art form. The only people practicing poetery are the
academics, most in their ivory towers, and the poverty stricken. So
many niches. Everything is a niche. The Gay niche, the lesbian niche
the Feminist niche, maybe even a christian niche. Niche after niche
but as you say, no center. So, maybe after 50 years or so, critics
will look back on this time and pick out poets who had a voice and
interensting lives that spoke to the times that we are in. But it is
likely to be rather arbitrary. 3000 journals to troll through. What
will remain of them in 50 years. Perhaps some latent Emily Dickinson
is out there waiting to be found after her death. To me, a great poet
must have a unique and individual style. Barring that you are just
mimicking the works of others. It also helps if you have a pathetic
or tempestuous life. That goes down well with critics and the world
at large.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
You would think that with the power of the Internet to bring people of
similar interests together we could see the formation of some new
colusion within art.

It's actually TOO much freedom - if you can imagine that.

Perhaps you are right about that. People are free to talk to many
people from all walks of life and we have the resources to track down
people with all sorts of interests. So why don't we see a flowering
of creativity instead of a stifling of it, in many regards. I
suppose it is all about status and ego. People get addicted to the
attention that they can have by criticizing others. Since there are
no real rules out here, the biggest bully on the block tends to get a
lot of attention. Not that every one means to be that way. But if
that is how you are treated when you first arrive, then you may adopt
that same mentality and abuse other newcomers. Now you are a part of
the in crowd and there is a whole new group of newbies to teach "the
rules" to. So much energy goes to waste over pathetic name calling.
Splitting of hairs, just to establish one's self as the smartest, the
most perfect player on the net. Never lost an argument. Etc. Very
immature behaviour. I wish people would out grow it.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Pesonally, I would like to see a return to beauty in poetry. We have
plenty of ugly poetry.

I think I know what you mean: I flirt about with the stuff myself. A
friend of mine once described my poetry as "the skeleton of Romanticism"
and Breton said surrealism was the tail of Romanticism, albeit a very
prehensile tail...

I don't mind infusing poetry with some of the ugliness that is just a
part of life in this world the way that Dylan Thomas did. That is an
aesthetic of it's own. But just to write about shit in order to shock
people by doing so. And other shock-oriented poetry. I just don't
really care for it. It has little or no substance and it will not
last.

Post by Dale Houstman
I think we might hope for a Poetry of Decay and Decline...

Perhaps. The Decline of the American Empire. Well, while you guys
are on that bandwagon, I think I'll hitch a teepee to a horse and
settle out on the plains. Maybe the buffalo will come back again...

John

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Dale, thank you for pointing me to your site. I've spent an hour or
so rummaging though it and reading several of the newer poems. Some
hit me dead on. I like the way you develop a poem. Call it surreal
or whatever there is a flow to it that makes internal sense to me. I
tend to write shorter poems by and large. And while you have surreal
objectives in mind, I tend to like to explore dreaming, or the inner
world. I have put together three volumes of poetry and they are
available at this site, should you care to take a look.
http://stores.lulu.com/johnbarnes
I will send you privately another web address that you can puruse at
your leisure.

Got it and will do...

Thanks.

Post by Dale Houstman
I tend to actually think of the poetic process as relatively
"superficial" (i.e. related to surface effects) rather than "deep": to
me it is really a matter of maniplating collected material into a series
of words and images that (as Breton put it) "make love to one another on
the page". It has to seem as if it means...

I agree that much of the making of a good poem is presenting words and
images that converse with each other as you read and imagine the
piece.
However I believe that if you don't have at some level a deeper
understanding of images and how they relate to one another in the flow
of thought/image/meaning you won't be able to produce material of much
value. It will come off as cold or disjointed.

Possibly - in fact this is what I tend to dislike about a lot of
"Language" poetics - although I think that that is the point: to draw
one's attention to the surface (like "field paintings" do for the visual
arts I gather), to the interplay of words. My guess is that this sort of
poetry is merely "of its time" in that it is evocative of a "wider
superficiality" in culture. I understand your point...but I am talking
to process rather than result. Obviously much goes on in this process of
writing that is frankly unconscious. But my conscious method is purely
surface oriented. The "deep" stuff appears to surface in rewriting, when
I am attemtping to "tie" everything together. At that point, varying
sorts of "aesthetic ethics" will intervene, producing (when I'm lucky!)
a poetic machine that manufactures sense and sensibility in various degress.

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman
Published? I gave that zero-sum game up years ago. Submit, submit again,
be accepted: there's the poem! A real snore all in all. I love creating
things, but the commerce part is strictly for hustlers and those who
need ego-gratification from drug-addled editors.

I agree. With upwards of 3000 journals out there, what it the point
in getting published in one or a few of them. Who actually reads
these journals, I ask myself. I tend to think that by and large the
people purchasing them are indivuals who have copy in them. And often
they only read what they put in there. Now I will admit that there
are some journals that are established and that do get read somewhat.
However, the question is, how does one get into one of these journals.

From what I gather, it's a matter of being in the right place at the
right time, and not hitting on the editor's spouse, or insulting his/her
favorite musician/politician/porn star/breakfast roll. Just another game
among many others. I had a VERY good chance to once be "installed" in
the upper echelons of the local poetry scene, with all the subsequent
access to media and attention that usually entails. But I (purposefully)
insulted several "important" people's sense of propriety, or (when that
didn't deter the buggers) their own persons, to their own faces (a few
had more than one available). It's a game of personalities, of
the poetry exists to serve the agenda, whatever it might be. So here in
Minneapolis, you get a local "Asian poet" (whom I knew personally and
abhorred personally), a number of "women poets" and "gay poets" and
whatever other niche is to filled. I imagine there might be an empty
"contrary surrealist poet" niche sitting out there, but they can fill it
with Cinnabuns for all I care.

Given that good chance to get installed in the local poetry circles, I
would probably have taken it.

Temptations is a bitch...

Post by John Barnes
However, I don't know what you didn't
like about the arrangement and you likely had very good reasons for
feeling as you did. But what does it warrant you in the end? Some
limited fame, mostly in a local circle.

Actually, it "warrants" attention AND money: the same people win the
same prozes years after year. This amounts to some thousands of dollars
per. And with my lifestyle, I could actually live off this sort of stuff
rather better than I do by working at a "real" job. So there is a
sacrifice to be made here. In other words, it wasn't an empty rejection,
and I knew it at the time.

Post by John Barnes
How many local circles are
there and how does one rise above being a local poet to having more
established respect? Well, I really don't know.

Bigger circles. You can see local "heroes/heroines" make the upgrade now
and then, although they often have to change up their game to make the
leap: a local "heroine" (whm I had as an awful teacher in grad school)
made her leap from poetic personality of some local regard to national
writer of some repute by turning from writing poetry (mainly the kid's
table) to writing memoir: the great crap pile of our time, lterature-
wise. You win a few prizes, you network, you crawl like a craven dog at
the feet of this or that Big City literadish. And so it goes...

Post by John Barnes
Like you say, a lot
of it may have to do with luck. Being in the right place at the right
time. Catching the eye of someone who is well established who may
give you a chance to go further. But who is really established
these days? Maya Angelou comes to mind.

Gag... There's a "wise black woman and teller of tales" niche I suppose.

Post by John Barnes
Robert Bly.

I actually know him. Gag... He's made his big jump on the back of some
awful "man spirit" documents and such. Pure spiritual hokum...

Post by John Barnes
But there are
so few. This is what was nice about Surrealism when it was a strong
movement. You could join the movement and have some hopes of
attaining renown in that way.

But renown would have been beside the point, I think...

Post by John Barnes
Even then a lot revolved around
politics. I suppose the pursuit of fame tends to do that. Unless you
are like Van Gogh and you are spurned most of your life only to be
picked up and made famous after your death. But then if you do not
write true to your own aesthetic and if you don't create something of
value, then what is the point of writing in the first place. And if
politics turn your stomach then I can see simply settling down and
writing for the pleasure of it.

Or even the displeasure of it.

Post by John Barnes
I tend to do that myself. I know how
much work is invloved in pursing some kind of recognition. I tell
myself I may pursue it after I retire. But I also know that to a
large degree the type of poetry I like to write is not in vogue. So,
that annoys me. But I don't plan to change. And that is me. Has
always been me. I won't kowtow to any philosophy or style just to win
brownie points or to be accepted by the status quo. Even if it is
calling itself the avant-garde.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
I have a friend who I knew from college. He was a poet and an English
major. I really admired his work. But I was talking to him recently
and I asked him if he was writing much poetry. He said he hasn't
written since 1997. He has a masters degree in English and he was a
University creative writing teacher for a while. But he concluded
that it is all a club.

Well - I see no need to give up poetry just because there's a club which
is trying to corner the market, but I understand how frustration can
accomplish surrender.

Yes, it surprised me. I never would have thought he would quit
writing. Now he is doing freelance photography and article writing
for a newspaper, but looking to get back into teaching. He still
loves Chinese and Japanese authors and Haiku in particular.

I suppose he might have been in the game for the wrong prize?

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
And if you're not in the club you can forget
about it. I suppose he meant that you have to be a Phd in English and
you have to maybe be an editor of a journal so that you can trade
publishing with other editors that you know. I really don't know.
But I will say, getting noticed, and I mean really noticed is hard
these days.

Notice yourself being unnoticed: it really is quite good enough, and
less bothersome in the long haul.

I suppose you are right. I have found some peace in just sharing my
work with a limited number of people. Personally, I enjoy creating
work and seeing it develop over time. Still, if chance would present
itself, I might pursue it. Probably not for some years, however. I
have a family to feed.

Poetry is fine. Eating is better.

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Where is the movement in poetry of this time?

Underground, in mother's basement? Marcel Duchamp said in the future the
only way to accompilsh art would be to take it underground and -
basically - out of the race. There's still a lot of good work being
done, but I rarely bother to keep up anymore. And one has to consider
that Western culture is a dying item in the butcher display, so what
we've got left is either anonymity (either pleasurable or frustrating)
or the sad parade of glossy academic Whitman samplers. There is no
"center" and most of what I see is pastiche, which is the usual ploy of
an art that has recognized its best days are behind it.

That is an interesting thought--that western culture is dying. I
don't know if it is true or not. But I do think that poetry is
suffering as an art form. The only people practicing poetery are the
academics, most in their ivory towers, and the poverty stricken. So
many niches. Everything is a niche. The Gay niche, the lesbian niche
the Feminist niche, maybe even a christian niche. Niche after niche
but as you say, no center. So, maybe after 50 years or so, critics
will look back on this time and pick out poets who had a voice and
interensting lives that spoke to the times that we are in.

Critics often create a movement after the body is dead...

Post by John Barnes
But it is
likely to be rather arbitrary. 3000 journals to troll through. What
will remain of them in 50 years. Perhaps some latent Emily Dickinson
is out there waiting to be found after her death. To me, a great poet
must have a unique and individual style. Barring that you are just
mimicking the works of others. It also helps if you have a pathetic
or tempestuous life. That goes down well with critics and the world
at large.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
You would think that with the power of the Internet to bring people of
similar interests together we could see the formation of some new
colusion within art.

It's actually TOO much freedom - if you can imagine that.

Perhaps you are right about that. People are free to talk to many
people from all walks of life and we have the resources to track down
people with all sorts of interests. So why don't we see a flowering
of creativity instead of a stifling of it, in many regards.

It simply doesn't mean much anymore. People don't really expect to find
answers anymore, or even to believe there are any to be found.
Post-modernism is in sway. And there is a lot of imaginative work being
done, only these are basement flowers.
I

Post by John Barnes
suppose it is all about status and ego. People get addicted to the
attention that they can have by criticizing others. Since there are
no real rules out here, the biggest bully on the block tends to get a
lot of attention. Not that every one means to be that way. But if
that is how you are treated when you first arrive, then you may adopt
that same mentality and abuse other newcomers. Now you are a part of
the in crowd and there is a whole new group of newbies to teach "the
rules" to. So much energy goes to waste over pathetic name calling.
Splitting of hairs, just to establish one's self as the smartest, the
most perfect player on the net. Never lost an argument. Etc. Very
immature behaviour. I wish people would out grow it.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Pesonally, I would like to see a return to beauty in poetry. We have
plenty of ugly poetry.

I think I know what you mean: I flirt about with the stuff myself. A
friend of mine once described my poetry as "the skeleton of Romanticism"
and Breton said surrealism was the tail of Romanticism, albeit a very
prehensile tail...

I don't mind infusing poetry with some of the ugliness that is just a
part of life in this world the way that Dylan Thomas did. That is an
aesthetic of it's own. But just to write about shit in order to shock
people by doing so. And other shock-oriented poetry. I just don't
really care for it. It has little or no substance and it will not
last.

Post by Dale Houstman
I think we might hope for a Poetry of Decay and Decline...

Perhaps. The Decline of the American Empire. Well, while you guys
are on that bandwagon, I think I'll hitch a teepee to a horse and
settle out on the plains. Maybe the buffalo will come back again...

...there's a lot of bison out there; it's the "free ranging" part that
has up and died.

dmh

[John Barnes]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
However I believe that if you don't have at some level a deeper
understanding of images and how they relate to one another in the flow
of thought/image/meaning you won't be able to produce material of much
value. It will come off as cold or disjointed.

Possibly - in fact this is what I tend to dislike about a lot of
"Language" poetics - although I think that that is the point: to draw
one's attention to the surface (like "field paintings" do for the visual
arts I gather), to the interplay of words. My guess is that this sort of
poetry is merely "of its time" in that it is evocative of a "wider
superficiality" in culture. I understand your point...but I am talking
to process rather than result. Obviously much goes on in this process of
writing that is frankly unconscious.

True, however, what comes out reflects what is within. It is by
developing internal understanding, by deeply delving into images and
meanings and how they relate to one another that I meant there is a
deep internal process going on here. If you have only superficial
experience and understanding, you could never, for isntance write
anything even close to what Dylan Thomas composed all of the time.

Post by Dale Houstman
But my conscious method is purely
surface oriented. The "deep" stuff appears to surface in rewriting, when
I am attemtping to "tie" everything together. At that point, varying
sorts of "aesthetic ethics" will intervene, producing (when I'm lucky!)
a poetic machine that manufactures sense and sensibility in various degress.

I can see that, however as well. You get some basic thoughts down,
then you connect the dots.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Given that good chance to get installed in the local poetry circles, I
would probably have taken it.

Temptations is a bitch...

Post by John Barnes
However, I don't know what you didn't
like about the arrangement and you likely had very good reasons for
feeling as you did. But what does it warrant you in the end? Some
limited fame, mostly in a local circle.

Actually, it "warrants" attention AND money: the same people win the
same prozes years after year. This amounts to some thousands of dollars
per. And with my lifestyle, I could actually live off this sort of stuff
rather better than I do by working at a "real" job. So there is a
sacrifice to be made here. In other words, it wasn't an empty rejection,
and I knew it at the time.

Well, you obviously had your reasons. I Like your work and I can see
that you have a strong mind with a great deal of conviction. As far
as I can tell this is a conviction for Surrealism as a way of life.
It is just too bad that Marxism never really took off to any degree.
Stalinism was never Marxism. And now that USSR is a failed entity,
people have the opinion that Comunism is a failed idea. However, it
has worked for people before. Many native american tribes lived in a
communal fashion, and early christians did the same. Besides, the
tennants of Marxism come down to this. The worker deserves payment
for the value of his or her work. Not to be just a commodity
himself. Marxist government has never existed.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
How many local circles are
there and how does one rise above being a local poet to having more
established respect? Well, I really don't know.

Bigger circles. You can see local "heroes/heroines" make the upgrade now
and then, although they often have to change up their game to make the
leap: a local "heroine" (whm I had as an awful teacher in grad school)
made her leap from poetic personality of some local regard to national
writer of some repute by turning from writing poetry (mainly the kid's
table) to writing memoir: the great crap pile of our time, lterature-
wise. You win a few prizes, you network, you crawl like a craven dog at
the feet of this or that Big City literadish. And so it goes...

We often look to famous people and admire them. However it seems
there is usually a price to pay to get there. Not everyone wants to
pay this price. I don't. The only way I could be famous in this
environment is if I aligned my beliefs to whatever philosophy was in
vogue at the time and kowtowed to anyone who had influence. But that
would be a departure from intellectual integrity for me and I refuse
to do it. Heck, I had thought of going to grad school, but the ideas
tI had in undergrad were unacceptable to the status quo. And I
refused to give them up. This was in mathematics.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Like you say, a lot
of it may have to do with luck. Being in the right place at the right
time. Catching the eye of someone who is well established who may
give you a chance to go further. But who is really established
these days? Maya Angelou comes to mind.

Gag... There's a "wise black woman and teller of tales" niche I suppose.

I've glanced at her work, it did nothing for me. Just a name that is
well known.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Robert Bly.

I actually know him. Gag... He's made his big jump on the back of some
awful "man spirit" documents and such. Pure spiritual hokum...

I have one of his books. It is ok.

You know who I like who is interesting? Robert Herrick. I have his
collected works and I really enjoyed reading them. His work was not
at all poplular at the time that he wrote it, but later critics came
along and now he is well, known, but most of his conteporaries are
not. Hmmm.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
But there are
so few. This is what was nice about Surrealism when it was a strong
movement. You could join the movement and have some hopes of
attaining renown in that way.

But renown would have been beside the point, I think...

True. I admire Marxists. Lots of integrity there, and a real social
conscience.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Yes, it surprised me. I never would have thought he would quit
writing. Now he is doing freelance photography and article writing
for a newspaper, but looking to get back into teaching. He still
loves Chinese and Japanese authors and Haiku in particular.

I suppose he might have been in the game for the wrong prize?

He is a crusty character. Knowing him, he just got pissed off and
decided that the world of poetry was shit and he would have none of
it. But still, not to write...? I imagine he will get back to it one
day.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
That is an interesting thought--that western culture is dying. I
don't know if it is true or not. But I do think that poetry is
suffering as an art form. The only people practicing poetery are the
academics, most in their ivory towers, and the poverty stricken. So
many niches. Everything is a niche. The Gay niche, the lesbian niche
the Feminist niche, maybe even a christian niche. Niche after niche
but as you say, no center. So, maybe after 50 years or so, critics
will look back on this time and pick out poets who had a voice and
interensting lives that spoke to the times that we are in.

Critics often create a movement after the body is dead...

That may have happened for John Keats. With a life that pathetic....
Then there is the never ending saga of the life of Edgar Allan Poe. I
collect biographies of him. And Emily Dickinson. Certainly she was
created by critics. Nobody wrote like her at the time, and hardly
anyone writes like her today. A complete original. You may not have
an aesthic per se, given your Surreaistic standpoint. However, I do.
Several of them, I suppose. I believe in the value of the creative
imagination to invent something that is not only beautiful, but also
that opens the doors of new thoughts and a new dreamscape for us to
uncover. I'm also a fan of James Joyce, although I don't pretend to
understand Finnegan's Wake. When I know all 5 or so languages it was
written in I'll sit down to read it. Still, from my point of view
you need an aesthetic for art so that you have some way to judge it.
These self made critics who simply say "good" "bad" take my word for
it since I'm an expert and you're not. Or rather, I'm established and
you're not.....

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps you are right about that. People are free to talk to many
people from all walks of life and we have the resources to track down
people with all sorts of interests. So why don't we see a flowering
of creativity instead of a stifling of it, in many regards.

It simply doesn't mean much anymore. People don't really expect to find
answers anymore, or even to believe there are any to be found.
Post-modernism is in sway. And there is a lot of imaginative work being
done, only these are basement flowers.

And this is were I was seeing myself going with the critics and all
just now. With total culatural relativism, and nobody beliving in
absolute truth in any regard, we end up with a tug of war. I'm a big
fan of Socrates. Back in ancient Greece they had a case much like
this. When the Greeks started expanding their borders and mingling
with many different cultures, they fell into relativism. Socrates
believed in some, at least, aspects of absolute truth. His arch
nemesis was Protagoras and the Sophists who believed that man is the
measure of all things. And his group took the upper hand in later
years. Total relativism = Might Makes Right. Do we really want to
live this way? I don't believe in it. Perhaps you do not either and
that may be part of why you rejected your chance to be established and
to become part of the establishment. Perhaps.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps. The Decline of the American Empire. Well, while you guys
are on that bandwagon, I think I'll hitch a teepee to a horse and
settle out on the plains. Maybe the buffalo will come back again...

...there's a lot of bison out there; it's the "free ranging" part that
has up and died.

Yes. Yes indeed.

JB

[Dale Houstman]

Besides, the tenets of Marxism come down to this. The worker deserves payment
for the value of his or her work.

It's more than that - the workers should own their means of production.
This has far-reaching implications, beoynd merely a paycheck. For
instance, I used to work at a place which required constant accessing of
information. Say we worked eight hours and turned out 25 pieces of work.
When computers were introduced, we could then double our production. If
the workers owned the means, they might have elected to turn out the
same 25 pieces in half the time rather than twice as much in the regular
eight: in other words, workers could elect to enhance their lives in
other ways than simply to produce more at the same rate. As it is, every
technological advance only profits the company barons, while the workers
merely stay as they were, being more productive for the same pay-off and
hours wasted on what is probably (given the nature of most labor)
worthwess activity.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Like you say, a lot
of it may have to do with luck. Being in the right place at the right
time. Catching the eye of someone who is well established who may
give you a chance to go further. But who is really established
these days? Maya Angelou comes to mind.

Gag... There's a "wise black woman and teller of tales" niche I suppose.

I've glanced at her work, it did nothing for me. Just a name that is
well known.

Can't stand her: she has frozen into a caricature of a sage, which would
be okay (at least more bearable) if her work itself were not the worst
preaching drivel around.

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Robert Bly.

I actually know him. Gag... He's made his big jump on the back of some
awful "man spirit" documents and such. Pure spiritual hokum...

I have one of his books. It is ok.
You know who I like who is interesting? Robert Herrick. I have his
collected works and I really enjoyed reading them. His work was not
at all poplular at the time that he wrote it, but later critics came
along and now he is well, known, but most of his conteporaries are
not. Hmmm.

Nice choice...

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps you are right about that. People are free to talk to many
people from all walks of life and we have the resources to track down
people with all sorts of interests. So why don't we see a flowering
of creativity instead of a stifling of it, in many regards.

It simply doesn't mean much anymore. People don't really expect to find
answers anymore, or even to believe there are any to be found.
Post-modernism is in sway. And there is a lot of imaginative work being
done, only these are basement flowers.

And this is were I was seeing myself going with the critics and all
just now. With total culatural relativism, and nobody beliving in
absolute truth in any regard, we end up with a tug of war. I'm a big
fan of Socrates. Back in ancient Greece they had a case much like
this. When the Greeks started expanding their borders and mingling
with many different cultures, they fell into relativism. Socrates
believed in some, at least, aspects of absolute truth. His arch
nemesis was Protagoras and the Sophists who believed that man is the
measure of all things. And his group took the upper hand in later
years. Total relativism = Might Makes Right. Do we really want to
live this way? I don't believe in it. Perhaps you do not either and
that may be part of why you rejected your chance to be established and
to become part of the establishment. Perhaps.

Maybe it was just because I prefer not to be demanded of - i.e. I just
want to take a nap.

dmh

[John Barnes]

Post by Dale Houstman

Besides, the tenets of Marxism come down to this. The worker deserves payment
for the value of his or her work.

It's more than that - the workers should own their means of production.
This has far-reaching implications, beoynd merely a paycheck. For
instance, I used to work at a place which required constant accessing of
information. Say we worked eight hours and turned out 25 pieces of work.
When computers were introduced, we could then double our production. If
the workers owned the means, they might have elected to turn out the
same 25 pieces in half the time rather than twice as much in the regular
eight: in other words, workers could elect to enhance their lives in
other ways than simply to produce more at the same rate. As it is, every
technological advance only profits the company barons, while the workers
merely stay as they were, being more productive for the same pay-off and
hours wasted on what is probably (given the nature of most labor)
worthwess activity.

True, it is much deeper than the worker getting just payment for his
or her work. And collective ownership is certainly a part of it.
You mentioned before how capitalism creates alienation for the people
living under it. Marxism tries to avoid this. So much thought has
been done in these areas. And yet, we have no real Marxist contries.
The experiment seems to always go awry. Maybe because it is being
tried on too large of a scale. Seems whenever money and power are at
stake, there will be those who will fight for it, for control. And
then you just have power politics, and this leads to corruption, etc.
Can it ever work?

Post by Dale Houstman

You know who I like who is interesting? Robert Herrick. I have his
collected works and I really enjoyed reading them. His work was not
at all poplular at the time that he wrote it, but later critics came
along and now he is well, known, but most of his conteporaries are
not. Hmmm.

Nice choice...

Thanks.

Post by Dale Houstman

Perhaps you do not either and
that may be part of why you rejected your chance to be established and
to become part of the establishment. Perhaps.

Maybe it was just because I prefer not to be demanded of - i.e. I just
want to take a nap.

Well, that is one solution...

John

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

Besides, the tenets of Marxism come down to this. The worker deserves payment
for the value of his or her work.

It's more than that - the workers should own their means of production.
This has far-reaching implications, beoynd merely a paycheck. For
instance, I used to work at a place which required constant accessing of
information. Say we worked eight hours and turned out 25 pieces of work.
When computers were introduced, we could then double our production. If
the workers owned the means, they might have elected to turn out the
same 25 pieces in half the time rather than twice as much in the regular
eight: in other words, workers could elect to enhance their lives in
other ways than simply to produce more at the same rate. As it is, every
technological advance only profits the company barons, while the workers
merely stay as they were, being more productive for the same pay-off and
hours wasted on what is probably (given the nature of most labor)
worthwess activity.

True, it is much deeper than the worker getting just payment for his
or her work.

Yep. And even more than just being able to have time to live rather than
work: it's about dignity and a feeling of involvement in one's own work.
For most people it is (understsndably, since corporations only see
things in terms of cash) merely a matter of money, of recompense in
coin. But honestly many people would opt to take less money if they
could have a job that was rewarding and at which they were personally
valued and listened to, where they were seen as more than just another
bit of company property to be exploited until worthless. If workers
truly owned their own means of production, this would more likely be a
possibility. But it's a pipedream...ceci n'est pas une pipe...

Post by John Barnes
You mentioned before how capitalism creates alienation for the people
living under it. Marxism tries to avoid this.

Unfortunately - in practive as opposed to theory - marxism has been just
another tool of exploitation, fear-mongering, and - yes- alienation.

Post by John Barnes
So much thought has
been done in these areas. And yet, we have no real Marxist contries.
The experiment seems to always go awry. Maybe because it is being
tried on too large of a scale.

Well, Marx himself was surprised and disappointed that the first great
experiment took root in a huge agrarian nation. He envisioned it as
starting in Germany, which already had an active industrial base. The
very fact it popped up in a basically unmanageable and ecnomically
unsuited nation as Russia is one of the reasons it floundered so quickly
and disaterously. Of course, it almost blossomed in Germany, but Hitler
had something to say about it. At any rate, something else would have
gone wrong there also. Human nature and the will to power.

Post by John Barnes
Seems whenever money and power are at
stake, there will be those who will fight for it, for control.

Well, there's another reason for the series of failures: an
idealistic/utopian/collective/non-profit motivated system will not
reallty survive long in the midst of capitalist systems, because one -
at its best - is meant to be passive and sustainable, the other
aggressive and hungry. Capitalism is voracious.

Post by John Barnes
And hen you just have power politics, and this leads to corruption, etc.
Can it ever work?

Probably not, in the hug picture. Of course, the "bits and pieces" of it
survive everywhere: from the social democracies of Europe, to the U.S.
crumbling social net (initiated by FDR as a hedge against a very real
threat of socialist takeover), to the third world's community systems.
Truth is capitalism and communism have existed in parallel through human
history, albeit under different names. But it all comes down to the
fight between communal and individual action. I imagine this struggle
isn't about to evaporate. So the debate (which seems - temporarily to
have been settled on the side of capitalism and alienation) will
continue, especially as the failures of capitalism (as opposed to the
failures of communism) become clearer and clearer. But I imagine also
that the new ideals will have to take on new names...

Post by John Barnes

Post by Dale Houstman

You know who I like who is interesting? Robert Herrick. I have his
collected works and I really enjoyed reading them. His work was not
at all poplular at the time that he wrote it, but later critics came
along and now he is well, known, but most of his conteporaries are
not. Hmmm.

Nice choice...

Thanks.

Post by Dale Houstman

Perhaps you do not either and
that may be part of why you rejected your chance to be established and
to become part of the establishment. Perhaps.

Maybe it was just because I prefer not to be demanded of - i.e. I just
want to take a nap.

Well, that is one solution...

Works for me too often...

dmh

[John Barnes]

Dale,

Don't have much time to write. I'm busy for this whole week. But I
find your comments on Marxism to be interesting. Perhaps you are
right and it will need to take on different names. Perhaps in the way
that Surrealism was born out of Dada, but that seems to be a very
different case because Dada was basically a reaction against art as it
was, where as Marxism is a full blown theory. I will be interested
in seeing if people can dream up a new take on it. But, cutures are
so diverse in this world. Socalism seems a more marketable idea and
it has some good adherenets in the world. Where will it all go?
Watch and see, I guess.

John

[Dale Houstman]

Post by John Barnes
Dale,
Don't have much time to write. I'm busy for this whole week. But I
find your comments on Marxism to be interesting.

Perhaps; unschooled and (as others have said) lacking :rigor". They are
"merely" inituitive and - yes- poetic. My wife (an old Socialist and
politico) has probably more to say on the subject, although - like most
adherents - she is as biased as the "enemy". I've read a bit, observed a
lot, but these human and historical struggles (many with roots in the
19th (and earlier) century Utopianists, tend to follow the same
narrative lines, swince they are manifestations of the human
metaphorical mind. So what I say might have some validity. Or not...

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps you are right and it will need to take on different names.

Names are important..."communism" is tainted, as "capitalism" will be
some day - as it is already only more so. Then it will have to be
repackaged, and some PR adjustments made , to make it palatable again.
Each disaster of one lends a roseate glow to the other. And the horrible
(and often dull) parade of dueling dualisms continues...

Post by John Barnes
Perhaps in the way
that Surrealism was born out of Dada, but that seems to be a very
different case because Dada was basically a reaction against art as it
was, where as Marxism is a full blown theory. I will be interested
in seeing if people can dream up a new take on it.

It's being done - all governments are workshops. There is a reason it
was called the "American Experiment". China is trying to meld communism
with controlled capitalism, the European nations continue the Social
Democracy experiments. The U.S. is somewhat behind the curve I think,
which doesn't speak well to our usual pre-eminence. The success or
failure of any system is finally measured on how it essentially deals
with rather pragmatic problems, not with its airiest ideals, although
they may always provide thec marching music. America simply has lost
much of its renown practicality, its way of facing a real problem and
providing real answers: it has allowed a plethora of battling "ideals"
(many bereft of idealism) to be the centerpiece of a constant battle
fuled by Big Money and Small Minds. I think not a pretty picture,
although the frame is still expensive. Committees form to commit to
studying problems created by other committees form to submit to
omissions in commitment by other committess: and it all comes down to
"we'll get back to you on that, please hold" - because frankly there is
money to be made in NOT solving many problems, and the (short-term)
profit is the point. There are - of course - ways out of this, but it is
most unlikely that they can be discovered by another committee. But the
buzzwords and isms don't help, when it comes down to "what are the
problems, and how do we address them" rather than "where is the profit
and how do we get to it?"

Post by John Barnes
But, cultures are
so diverse in this world. Socalism seems a more marketable idea and
it has some good adherenets in the world. Where will it all go?
Watch and see, I guess.

Collective action and competition have co-existed (easily and uneasily)
since the beginning of time. There is little reason to think either is
about to relax its hold and retire to Sunnybrook Farms or a Dacha.
Disasters force solutions, but that is a brutal process. One the human
race seems to embrace...

dmh

[Dennis M. Hammes]

Post by Dale Houstman
Names are important..."communism" is tainted, as "capitalism" will be
some day - as it is already only more so.

When the FUCK have you ever seen Capitalism?
You weren't even /born/ until after the New Welfare State was a
full generation into monkey shit.
Or is that "No Monkey Left Behind" shit.
You know. The sort of shit that can gibber that Surrealism "grew
out of" the sarcastic kick in the ballZ it didn't have when Dada gave it.
Or are we spoZe to aspire to be Artsy by saying "encrapulation"
instead of "shit"?

"Fantastic."

[Dale Houstman]

Post by Dennis M. Hammes

Post by Dale Houstman
Names are important..."communism" is tainted, as "capitalism" will be
some day - as it is already only more so.

When the FUCK have you ever seen Capitalism?
You weren't even /born/ until after the New Welfare State was a full
generation into monkey shit.
Or is that "No Monkey Left Behind" shit.
You know. The sort of shit that can gibber that Surrealism "grew out
of" the sarcastic kick in the ballZ it didn't have when Dada gave it.
Or are we spoZe to aspire to be Artsy by saying "encrapulation"
instead of "shit"?
"Fantastic."

"Capitalism" is busy tearing down those "New Welfare State" programs as
quickly as they can, so I feel fiarly secure in my "appreciation" of
what is capitalism and what is not. And - for a fact - "capitalism" (or
"communism" for that matter) or any other "ism" has never been a matter
of "purity": there have always been mixtures of what you decry as "New
Welfare States" (and what I see as pragmatic sops to the victims of
capitalism). I see capitalism and its processes every day, in person and
in the media. Where have you been?

dmh

[Dennis M. Hammes]

Post by Dale Houstman

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thanks for all the links to Dale's work. I read a good many of his
poems. They are nice and I can see that he has been writing
surrealist poetry for some time. He is consistent at it and he is
good at it. I also read his biography in one of the journal's you
linked me to. An interesting life. He is 14 years older than me and
he has seen and done many things that build character, especially for
a poet.

"Build charscter?" Like doing LSD, working as little as possible, and
generally being a lazy good-for-nothing? Then I got plenty 'o'
character...My "interesting life" is mainly a long hard search for the
next rut. Don't like being caught out on open flatland...
Since you're getting all this from that rat's cloaca disguised as a
monkey's uncle Will, did he direct you to my own website - such as it
is? [Who has time for that shit?] There's plenty of my work there - both
visual and "more or less poetic" - so you could be disillusioned at a
much more rapid rate. The removal of aesthetic cataracts is performed
gratis...

Post by John Barnes
I especially enjoyed his "The Blossming of the Key: Loose Thoughts on
Surrealism." Very good thoughts here. And from what I'm seeing
elsewhere this describes surrealism as it is today.

Who knows where surrealism is today? I know most of the living
surrealists, and - frankly - they're a confused lot, vainly awaiting the
return of the world's attention, and handwringing as the parade of fools
passes by their brightly decorated urinal warehouses. All Isms - at any
rate - have been buried beneath Desperatism, which is the feeble hand
wave of the future, as painted by Leroy Nieman on the back of a pack of
sugarless gum.
dmh

Heh.

P.S.: Will's a monkey. /I'm/ the monkey's uncle.
Cf. the "avuncular relationship," anthropology, psychology,
sociology: The "uncle" can spank the monkey precisely because the
monkey's Mommy /already isn't/ fucking the uncle -- whether he be her
brother or her brother in law.

[David]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thank you for this reference. I love the lists that they came up
with. Very funny.
I will have to do some research into some of these older postings.
And also see what I can find out about Rimbaud.
John

Rimbaud's language was french, so the translations vary somewhat wildly,
depending on the styles and agendas of the translators. I have three books
of Rimbaud in my collection, and each one gives different effects when
reading the poems... I've glimpsed through a brand new translation at the
local bookstore which may just be the best yet... maybe I'll give myself a
copy for Christmas... heh.
"...The first study for the man who wants to be a poet is knowledge of
himself,
complete: he searches for his soul, he inspects it, he puts it to the test,
he learns it. As soon as he has learned it, he must cultivate it! I say that
one must be a seer, make oneself a seer. The poet becomes a seer through a
long, immense, and reasoned derangement of all the senses. All shapes of
love suffering, madness. He searches himself, he exhausts all poisons in
himself, to keep only the quintessences. Ineffable torture where he needs
all his faith, all his superhuman strength, where he becomes among all men
the great patient, the great criminal, the great accursed one--and the
supreme Scholar! For he reaches the unknown! ....So the poet is actually a
thief of Fire..."
-Arthur Rimbaud, The Letter of the Seer, May 15, 1871
http://velvet-and-rust.blogspot.com/2007/01/ophelia-by-arthur-rimbaud...
On the calm black water where the stars are sleeping
White Ophelia floats like a great lily;
Floats very slowly, lying in her long veils...
In the far-off woods you can hear them sound the mort.
For more than a thousand years sad Ophelia
Has passed, a white phantom, down the long black river.
For more than a thousand years her sweet madness
Has murmured its ballad to the evening breeze.
The wind kisses her breasts and unfolds in a wreath
Her great veils rising and falling with the waters;
The shivering willows weep on her shoulder,
The rushes lean over her wide, dreaming brow.
The ruffled water-lilies are sighing around her;
At times she rouses, in a slumbering alder,
Some nest from which escapes a small rustle of wings;
A mysterious anthem falls from the golden stars.
O pale Ophelia! beautiful as snow!
Yes child, you died, carried off by a river!
It was the winds descending from the great mountains of Norway
That spoke to you in low voices of better freedom.
It was a breath of wind, that, twisting your great hair,
Brought strange rumors to your dreaming mind;
It was your heart listening to the song of Nature
In the groans of the tree and the sighs of the nights;
It was the voice of mad seas, the great roar,
That shattered your child's heart, too human and too soft;
It was a handsome pale knight, a poor madman
Who one April morning sate mute at your knees!
Heaven! Love! Freedom! What a dream, oh poor crazed Girl!
You melted to him as snow does to a fire;
Your great visions strangled your words
And fearful Infinity terrified your blue eye!
And the poet says that by starlight
You come seeking, in the night, the flowers that you picked
And that he has seen on the water, lying in her long veils
White Ophelia floating, like a great lily.
-Arthur Rimbaud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rimbaud
--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars
"Wobble" by Dockery-Conley:http://www.myspace.com/willdockery

Rimbeaudelaire et les fleurs de Mal-larme.
came together on a wet and windy day
when a fellow and a maid were playing
in the hay

a pitch fork
caught him as he serenely lay
as a father came to have his say
and brought a pretty end to his rumbuctuous play............

[John Barnes]

Post by David

Post by Will Dockery

Post by John Barnes
Will,
Thank you for this reference. I love the lists that they came up
with. Very funny.
I will have to do some research into some of these older postings.
And also see what I can find out about Rimbaud.
John

Rimbaud's language was french, so the translations vary somewhat wildly,
depending on the styles and agendas of the translators. I have three books
of Rimbaud in my collection, and each one gives different effects when
reading the poems... I've glimpsed through a brand new translation at the
local bookstore which may just be the best yet... maybe I'll give myself a
copy for Christmas... heh.
"...The first study for the man who wants to be a poet is knowledge of
himself,
complete: he searches for his soul, he inspects it, he puts it to the test,
he learns it. As soon as he has learned it, he must cultivate it! I say that
one must be a seer, make oneself a seer. The poet becomes a seer through a
long, immense, and reasoned derangement of all the senses. All shapes of
love suffering, madness. He searches himself, he exhausts all poisons in
himself, to keep only the quintessences. Ineffable torture where he needs
all his faith, all his superhuman strength, where he becomes among all men
the great patient, the great criminal, the great accursed one--and the
supreme Scholar! For he reaches the unknown! ....So the poet is actually a
thief of Fire..."
-Arthur Rimbaud, The Letter of the Seer, May 15, 1871
http://velvet-and-rust.blogspot.com/2007/01/ophelia-by-arthur-rimbaud...
On the calm black water where the stars are sleeping
White Ophelia floats like a great lily;
Floats very slowly, lying in her long veils...
In the far-off woods you can hear them sound the mort.
For more than a thousand years sad Ophelia
Has passed, a white phantom, down the long black river.
For more than a thousand years her sweet madness
Has murmured its ballad to the evening breeze.
The wind kisses her breasts and unfolds in a wreath
Her great veils rising and falling with the waters;
The shivering willows weep on her shoulder,
The rushes lean over her wide, dreaming brow.
The ruffled water-lilies are sighing around her;
At times she rouses, in a slumbering alder,
Some nest from which escapes a small rustle of wings;
A mysterious anthem falls from the golden stars.
O pale Ophelia! beautiful as snow!
Yes child, you died, carried off by a river!
It was the winds descending from the great mountains of Norway
That spoke to you in low voices of better freedom.
It was a breath of wind, that, twisting your great hair,
Brought strange rumors to your dreaming mind;
It was your heart listening to the song of Nature
In the groans of the tree and the sighs of the nights;
It was the voice of mad seas, the great roar,
That shattered your child's heart, too human and too soft;
It was a handsome pale knight, a poor madman
Who one April morning sate mute at your knees!
Heaven! Love! Freedom! What a dream, oh poor crazed Girl!
You melted to him as snow does to a fire;
Your great visions strangled your words
And fearful Infinity terrified your blue eye!
And the poet says that by starlight
You come seeking, in the night, the flowers that you picked
And that he has seen on the water, lying in her long veils
White Ophelia floating, like a great lily.
-Arthur Rimbaud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rimbaud
--
"Dream Tears" by Dockery-Mallard:http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars
"Wobble" by Dockery-Conley:http://www.myspace.com/willdockery

Rimbeaudelaire et les fleurs de Mal-larme.
came together on a wet and windy day
when a fellow and a maid were playing
in the hay
a pitch fork
caught him as he serenely lay
as a father came to have his say
and brought a pretty end to his rumbuctuous play............- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

A bit silly but fun and interesting.

JB